I can't help but a feel a bit like you're intentionally misreading my comment a bit, so I'm going to provide another example instead. Look at a Hsien and a Marut (non-Strategoes version.) It's a 55 point gap. The Hsien packs higher CC and MA1, which about evens out with the HFT and Nanopulser. So then the question is, is 55 points worth the armor and BTS bump, the PH bump, an additional STR, and a WIP, a point of BS, and 6-4 movement? It's just not. The Marut is good because of internal balance reasons, Strategoes, and MSV2. It's good in spite of paying for a ton of armor, rather than because of it. My point has nothing to do with the units I am comparing. I am trying to show you that ARM is absurdly expensive for how little difference it makes.
And a MULTI HMG instead of a regular HMG (so EXP rounds on ARO, and shock/AP on active). And Fatality L1. And can vault over many things so with this mouvement it can do more because it can just vault instead of climb or go around. And remote presence, which means courage and a second unconscious level. And can deliver a specialist operative in the field (and can block line of view for it). And it's cost has more to do with being an MSV-2 TAG than pure armor, compare it to the jotums (+2 WIP for the Marut, +2 ARM for the Jotums, other stats are the same, one has DEP the other has nanopulser, but the Marut is 13 pts / 0.5 SWC more) Seriously, you're so focussed on the Arm thing you ignore all the rest the mini has to offer. It's not just a shooting game :'(
You realize there is a set point cost for everything in the game, right? There is an exact formula that determines how many points each thing costs. I feel like based on your responses you are unaware of this. One of the reasons Tohaa is so strong is that they get lots of wounds without being taxed by arm. How many other armies can get 3 wounds, two of which go on whatever units they want, for just 21 points?
You realise that i precisely quoted big obvious counter examples like the Marut and the Maghariba ? As for the armor, I think i gave enough examples to how the Seraph could justify it's cost or why it's armor could still be valuable, to no avail. The armor may be a little bit overcosted, but there is FAR MORE than the armor that could justify the price difference in the various examples we discussed. Well, i see no point in debatting about it anymore, especially since it's not the initial topic.
The problem is that I am using these as examples in a vacuum of issues with the pricing, and you aren't looking at them in the context I am providing them. Yes, the Marut is good -- but it's good in spite of armor rather than because of it. And no, there's not far more to justify the cost difference, if you know the point formula. You could have just said "no I'm not aware of any specifics of the point formula" and this conversation would be have been the same. There is a reason the Tik and Sphinx are generally considered some of the best TAGs, and it's because of their small silhouette, lower cost, and climbing plus. I did take it back to the original point btw, which is that Tohaa don't pay armor taxes for their best units. Look at the kit of a Mobile Brigada or Orc against a Sukeul and tell me which one you would rather have.
Well here's my stab at it. I'm not really sure if they would be ranked like below but I think they are top 3 at least. 1. Riot Grrrls. Even better in a link 2. Mutts 3. Kaeltar
Yes, we all know that formula exists. But fact that there is formula doesnt mean its perfect. And thats clue of discussion about Marut.
Votes as of this post*: Ghazi Muttawi'ah - 13.5 Posthuman Proxy - 10.5 Kaeltar - 10 Warcor - 5 Chasseur - 4 Kamau - 2.5 Kuang Shi - 2 Sukeul - 1.5 Ikadron, Libertos, Chaksa Auxiliar, Su Jian, Volunteer, Hsien, Guilang, Kirpal Singh, Unidron, Riot Grrls - 1 each AI Beacons - 0.5 * (counting "honorable mentions" and votes over the limit as 0.5 vote each)
No real surprise, aye? And with kaeltar we all mean only symbiomates. If there was only profile with symbiobombs I guess they wouldnt be even mentioned. Not beause bombs are weak. Because mates are so strong:)
So, here are my three, based on what I usually play in tournaments : 1) Ghazi : probably the best warband in the game, jammer, smoke, dogged, E/Marat, Chain rifle, WIP 15... 2) Intruder : my Nomads favourite unit, it saved the day many times. 3) Asawira : one of the best HI in the game, has almost everything, good versatility.
That's a very interesting one to see in a top 3. I find myself taking the Haris with Muyibs often enough in HB but never play them in Vanilla. What kind of experiences do you have with them that contribute to such high praise/disdain from you?
If I may interject into this small Asawira side discussion... I can certainly see it being hailed as one of the better HI in the game. Perhaps most of all due to how little support it seems to demand. Think about it. It carries it's own decent infowar defenses with Stealth, Haqqs standard good WIP and 9 BTS. It can perfectly go about without doctor support thanks to Regeneration. Leaving only engineering help needed. That is without mentioning it having just enough CC capability to qualify as a ''Not good enough to be some CC focused unit, but good enough that you can actually see practically feasible situations involving CC.'' Toss in a solid BS14, a DTW on all the profiles, a Doctor Plus specialist profile and a decent selection of firearms. And the Asawira looks rather damn solid.
No doubt, the Asawira is solid. I like it a lot more than some people seem to. I personally would not rate it as in the top 10 profiles for the game, though Manfred did specify that their scope was within which opponents they tend to face, in which case it is a very fair choice. This is my only real nitpick. I don't consider Regeneration do be a big positive on a 2w model (already shock immune) and would prefer to not spend points on it, even if it is fluffly. I find it extremely rare that I use it and more often enough you are spending an order on killing your own model. If Regen was a once per turn free attempt (perhaps not usable on the turn you enter the null state?) I would like it a lot more. As it stands I prefer to spend the order elsewhere, hell, I would even prefer spending the order on a doctor which now gains me some board position with a specialist (especially in Haqq, where the re-rollable doc check is a 17). I definitely stick a Doctor in with the Asawira Haris whenever I take it.
Fair point. Although, there is the case of ''I either spend 1 order to maybe heal it immediately... or I spend 2+ order getting there and healing the bastard.'' So eh, I'd say it's kinda like an AutoMedikit. It's not as good as a doctor... but then again, you don't need a doctor to use Regen/AutoMedikits, so it has that small plus side.
Very true, it's absolutely a plus side, no argument there. I just don't consider it a very big plus. There will of course be scenarios where the doctors are all down or too far to help and no one else is around to do the job but I find those scenarios are far and few between.
Well, to me personally, I find the threat of hacking and various other Jammery-E/My-Isolationy shenanigans quite a bit more of a threat to the average HI than, you know, going unconscious ( Ya got two wounds, after all. ), so I'd tend to prioritize an engineer over a doctor in most of my lists.
My pick: 1- Posthumans (Mk2 and Mk5 are so insanely good for their price that you would never ever consider taking any other proxy, yet alone other troops on the same price band) 2- Muttawiah - One of the best units on the game however they are needed to leverage the downsizes of their faction. 3- Achilles - Just miles better than anythin on his price range. Also being stealthy makes him a nightmare to hack. Shoots AROs at 15s most of the time while you are shooting back at -6 most of the time.
Of course, I usually play HB and the Asa Haris are in almost all lists, but also the fireteam duo is quite effective, my used profile are spitfire and doc, in vanilla I play the first that is an excellent datatracker and a very good fire platform, as @Maksimas said, Asa has a very complete profile and many useful abilities, moreover, in my opinion, in an army like Haqq where the opponent have to face many threats everywhere, like Ghazi, Daylami, Fiday etc., the Asa is free to act because very often it is not considered a priority.
Cost of the rule not being a constant doesn't mean it's hand-adjusted. Cost can be expressed with a factored variable. That's still a formula. The thing is, of course, that at basic level all those constants and factors are assigned somewhat arbitrarily, coming from the need design team had to price very different things on the same scale. Practically, you have to also consider it against things like EM and hacking because even though they don't interact directly, you still pay for ARM that will not help you with these quite popular means of attacking. Supposedly, being of HI/TAG/REM type should discount you for those vulnerabilities, but I wonder if that discounts scales with the cost of ARM of a particular unit, and how much active turn is weighted against reactive (because it's less likely that you will drive your TAG into EM on your turn, and it's less likely that your opponent will bring a rifle to your TAG on his turn).
