Hehe, ridiculous followup question: In my active turn, a Daturazi throws smoke near a Shaolin Monk. The Monk AROs by throwing smoke such that the template blocks LoF to the chosen point of impact for the Daturazi. Is this now a Face to Face roll? Bonus points: the Monk's chosen point of impact will be visible to her no matter the outcome of the Daturazi's roll.
No. It's two normal rolls. The Monk isn't affected by the Daturazi's Smoke attack so it fails the "both models need to affect the other" test for FTF rolls (this assumes that the Monk's LOF to her target is not blocked). If both the Daturazi's LOF and the Monk's LOF to their respective targets were blocked by the other's smoke template then both Troopers would be affecting the other and it would be FTF.
The monk may respond as they are affected by an impact template, but I don't think it meets the requirement to be a Face to face. much like dodging a smoke template wouldn't initiate a face to face.
Smoke ammo specifically says that it's a normal roll vs. dodge though. If it didn't say that, it would be. I think it can go face to face against other smoke if you block the LoF of the BS attack.
It does, however, say it's not an "attack", which probably makes it not FtF to most things by default, unless specifically covered under the special dodge clause.
@daszul but, in perhaps a slightly counterintuitive way, the Devil Dog is not protecting the K-9, he's protecting himself and himself only with the face to face roll.
Are you intentionally trying to steer the topic off course? K-9 is a point of reference. It might as well belong to hostile player 2 in a 3 player free for all. The DDog isn't trying to protect the K-9. Please get that out of your system. It's frankly getting really tiresome answering this line of questioning.
Dear @ijw , what is your opinion on this topic? I always admired your deep rules analysis. Smoke dodge defends only the bearer and only if attack requires LOF... but to land impact template on k-9 no LOF to Devil Dog is required. How to prove that? Put k-9 in Open and hide Devil Dog in total cover the way it will be in reach of impact template - can it be done? Yes, it can be done. Conclusion? Attack with HRL impact template to Devil Dog DO NOT REQUIRE LOF to Devil Dog. As a result it do not fulfil smoke dodge requirement.
Let's try it. This will be my first and only post on this discussion. Using a Smoke Grenade is a BS Attack with the Special Dodge trait. We all agree here, right? DD and K9 are under the blast of a (just to say) HRL. K9 is the target, DD cannot see the firing model, due to scenic elements, wrong direction or any plausible reason. That's it? To be able to ARO with a BS Attack, what do you need? LoS to the active model. End of the discussion. Please leave that dead horse to itself.
Nope, not trying to steer off. And this wasn't a question meant especially for you to answer. Just public wondering. What does this FAQ mean? That the DD may throw smoke, but the K9 still gets hit but the DD doesn't? Like, the smoke doesn't prevent the HRL from being fired, but the blast from hitting the DD?!? That doesn't make much sense to me. I understand it that way, that only the initial target is allowed to use the Smoke Special Dodge, because if it succeeds, the attack (as a whole) is prevented. Like, "you are only allowed to use the Smoke Special Dodge to prevent an attack directly aimed at you, because the smoke will block the intial LOS drawn towards you. Any other affected target that was not drawn LOS to by the inital attack is not allowed to throw smoke to obscure this LOS." And none of this is meant as an offense, or meant to 'tire' anyone. I just want to understand it...
The FAQ answers one of the most common question/error that new players have regarding smoke in this game. "Can McMurrogh throw a smoke grenade so your Swiss Guard will miss the Veteran Kazak that they are shooting?" (Unit names selected at random) The answer is "No, McMurrogh can't use his smoke grenade to protect the Veteran Kazak from shots declared in the same order" This thread is, very explicitly, not about that.
The assumption is that the DD has LOF to the attacker or, as you point out, the BS Attack fails at the first hurdle.
So, let's try it again. Using a Smoke Grenade is a BS Attack with the Special Dodge trait. We all agree here, right? DD and K9 are under the blast of a (just to say) HRL. both can see the firing model. That's it? DD place his Smoke Grenade in a way that interrupt the LoS between him and the attacker, K-9 howls to its fate (it cannot declare Dodge, because its companion declared a BS Attack). Active model rolls. K-9 gets any hit rolled, no way to avoid the ARM roll. DD is FtF as per Special Dodge + Impact template rules. Where is the problem? It is so frigging simple if you'd stop to call it Smoke Dodge.
Part of the issue come from this special rule. If smoke where a standard BS weapon, the DD would be able to protect himself from the blast with it (supposing he had LoF on the shooter) As it is, he cannot protect himself with the smoke (because he is not the target of the attack and, once landed, the template doesn't need LoF) nor can he protect the K9 (because you can protect only yourself with a smoke (as explained on all ghost synchro, coordinated order and fireteam ruling regarding smoke)
EVERYONE UNDER A TEMPLATE IS A TARGET OF THE ATTACK. The primary one is the one the Mods are calculated against. All the other are secondary targets.
This is, IMO, the most succinct way to think about the issue. Does the enemy attack require LoF? - Yes Does the enemy attack require a roll? - Yes Is "their" (the enemy's) LoF blocked by the smoke circular template being placed? - Yes
Nope. The impact template rule are very careful not to use the word target for anyone but the main target, saying that the other are "affected by the template" or "suffer the attack". For example : "the main target or any other affected trooper". I feel like they make this distinction for a reason (like : the other are not target of the BS attack so the shooter don't need to fulfil the BS attack requirement to hit them) I would complete it : Does the enemy attack against the reactive trooper require LoF? - Yes for the K9, No for the DD Does the enemy attack require a roll? - Yes Who has smoke : The DD Who can smoke dodge : noone
This is not quite true. Check the titles in the example sections: "Teardrop Impact Template example. All targets react by Shooting." This does happen to be the only place they identify secondary targets as "targets" for impact templates (AFAICT), but they do also call out all things under a direct template as "targets", so there's that as well. As has been stated many times now, the only point of contention is whether the "attack" that requires LoF to be broken is the HRL shot (it works because it required LoF) or the blast itself (it doesn't work because no LoF is required to hit secondary targets). Personally, I've changed my mind on this point, but I can obviously still see the confusion. The part that got me was throwing smoke in a way that is meaningful to the outcome. You aren't throwing smoke to obscure yourself from the blast (that wouldn't work), and you aren't throwing smoke to obscure yourself from the attacker (that also wouldn't work). What you are doing is throwing smoke in a way to obscure target of the original shot (bearing in mind that the main target is not benefiting from this at all). That original shot required LoF. That original shot required a roll. The smoke is placed so that the LoF that was required is blocked. I get the feeling that several of you haven't seen the diagram I made to highlight this. If we can't agree on this starting point, we are simply talking past each other.
