I have this problem when playing Infinity. I miss flat tokens that are meant to be camouflage troopers constantly. They mask themselves as prone markers, order tokens or even hide expertly behind low parapets that all buildings have in the future. Playing with intent does make it manageable, but it's still a huge pain. Quite significantly worse than playing against someone who hasn't marked LOF arc, in fact. Would you agree that 3D markers should be just as mandatory as painting LOF arc? CB's partners make a veritable plethora of these. From soldier silhouettes with numbers on them to Customeeple's silhouettes of faction troops (this green shade of a ninja is hiding an oniwaban!) so they aren't exactly hard to come over. There's also plenty of stuff you could make to build the tokens up for a cheap fix (mosquito nets with some plastic shavings on them make for excellent camo nets that simply go on a 25mm base - or why not a miniature cardboard box?)
I am torn, by this question. I do agree, that it increases the difficulty playing against an camoflagued enemy list and seems unfair. However. a) You are informed by your enemy, that there is a camo unit. You just forgot. You could also forget about a Unit having a specific weapon or standing behin a corner. b) the cost of 3D markers is significantly higher then a printed token or 3 small painting dots on a base (LOF arc). Making 3D Markers mandatory would reduce the availability of units outside the army builder and reduces the playability of the game itself. (for People on a tight budget)
It is to the point where I almost consider playing with flat tokens a willful obfuscation. While it's impossible for my opponent to know what token I am going to miss, it ties heavily into the debate on what you are allowed to ask and what your opponent have to volunteer. However, looking at my own forces I'm not sure I fully agree with b), I have very few pieces that have LOF painted because that is a precision job that costs me too much to perform (what little time or patience I have for painting has to go to the painting that is actually fun) while acquiring 3D markers has cost me nearly nothing in terms of either money or time spent. Putting costs in relationship to the rest of the expenses this game requires the only unreasonable level would be to require you to use actual models as markers, the MDF or acrylic alternatives are... cheap... to say the least.
We've had people in our group constantly complaining about flat camo markers being hard to see/forgettable. When I bought into Ariadna camo spam I bought a bunch of the silhouette people to make it easy for them to know where everything is. Guess what? They still complain, constantly. "It was at an angle, so I couldn't see it." "They blend in too much!" (They are shiny black acrylic silhouettes) "I didn't know that was there!" (I told them it was there at the start of the game. I never moved it. Look around the corner of buildings FFS) This game already requires the ancillary expenses of objective cards, tokens, dice, measuring tape and terrain (a laser is helpful as well). Adding another required expense that may or may not have an impact doesn't sound favorable to me in any way.
Add to that the doubling of transport and storage... I can port all my markers in a neat small box and an acrylic S2 silhouette , if I have to carry a silhouette for each marker I can potentially deploy... Just in Aleph we are talking about 7 impersonation, 4 camo, 3 TO Camo... Repeat after me: flat *no* I prefer to remind my opponent where my camos are and let him undo his movement, specially since going around the table can be difficult (lack of space) or simply impractical for whatever reason.
Miniatures games are an expensive hobby, and cost of a 3d markers can be as low as 1 euro. Not all that much compared to minis/paints etc. I would worry more about availability of those in LGS. Such markers could probably just be printed and cut out of paper with cardboard base. CB could add those to their printable marker sheets and problem is solved. In my experience playing with 3d markers makes the game better. Clearer view for both me and my opponent.
Agreed with Balewolf (people will always find something to complain about), but I also see the sentiment expressed in the OP. Completely flat camo markers are a pain to see across the table since, when you place them in contact with cover on a rooftop, they may not be visible from the opponent's table edge. I use high-vis camo markers (Orange Chessex dice glued to 25mm bases - see below) that people generally have an easy time finding on the table. The numbers help me keep track of who is where. They're also high enough to be seen across most tables, behind most rooftop edges. This helps a lot while sparing the expense of buying a ton of silhouettes. Plus it gave me something to do with my 40k dice :tearsofjoy: You could always ask your opponent to place dice on top of his camo markers so they're easier to see and differentiate from other tokens on the table.
Forget where I found them, but I have some papercraft cardboard boxes that are the right size for a camo marker... Print on regular paper and spray with sealer. [edit: helps if I attach the correct file...]
When I first started I used the camo silhouettes for the one TO unit I had but now I'm all tokens all the time. Tokens have bit me in the ass plenty of times. Most recently I forgot about a camo marker I couldn't see and when my opponent killer hacked my EVO bot I was so surprised I stuttered out a "w w what?!" My voice even cracked.
I've always made 3d camo markers for my armies, as I find it more fair for my opponents. That being said, it is all personal preference and there is nothing wrong with using a 2d marker. Just be sure to keep your opponent aware of what is what on the table. If you intentionally use them because you're hoping your opponent will forget them or can't see them, then you should get a light slap on the back of the head.
I've got a few printable stand-tokens that people can use. Some bonus Civvy/Deployable/Impersonation markers too. The blank circles are to add a little reinforcement to the setup. Print them out on a printer-safe thin card, scissors, glue, and Bob's your Mother or Father's sibling! https://imgur.com/a/kidXI
I massively prefer 3d ones to the point I'm considering getting my own. But I think it does come down to remembering them a lot of the time and 3d ones help, but won't eliminate the issue.
I changed to 3d markers and I think this is a lot better for myself and my opponent. They are much better to spot than the flat ones. Still, I don't tell people they should get them because there are not a requirement and there are still many people who have invested into flat ones. 3d markers are not expensive and theyr are easy to make DIY. Dice glued onto markers may be a bit better than just the markers. I encourage everyone to get silhouette markers, but I would not annoy people about it. The problem with forgetting about a model because it is situated in some angle that you cannot see will remain. That is a problem with skirmish games that we have to live with.
Sorry, I really dont think you should complain about anyone as long as you don't have your LOS marked. That is a requirement. And don't tell me that it is hard to do. It's not and everybody is doing it.
I use 3D, but mostly for myself. I used to forget my camo unit(s) every single game. They would not ARO, they would not be activated, and past the first turn they would not generate orders (I missed them in my count). I was essentially playing with a big gap in my list. Once I switched to 3D tokens, I tended to remember them and they began to make a difference in play. Sure, I do exactly the same thing with camo units my opponents use, but I am not going to insist my opponents change. I put this on me, not them. In fact, I remember one game where a mine had been placed. Both of us had forgotten it! After I'd had two or three models walk through there unhindered my opponent remembered the mine (hidden so well neither of us could see the token), but it was a little too late (he won the game anyway, so it did not matter).
Is there any company that does non unit specific camo/to camo 3d tokens? Art of War ones I'm not a big fan of.
Warsenal used to make non-specific markers, but I can't find them on their homepage anymore. Here's a picture of them from my LFG's homepage: https://alphaspel.se/media/products/6cc2e943-3438-4509-af30-2f0b27b5fb7f.600x600_q50_fill.jpg Thing is, if they make it a rule and inform their partners, there will be an increase in options.
Or you could ask customeeple if they could do some for you. I got the Haqq ones from them and asked them to be numbered 1-10 to mark on my armylist which token is what. Personly i prefer playing with 3d tokens, for fairness and easier spotting on the table. There is no paper cutout marker mysteriously half or 3/4 under the scenery if you use them.
Yeah I might ask them. I keep getting tempted to order their ones but im not huge on the 25mm tokens as CA as they're all due a resculpt. Ill have a think, cheers thread
