Really, your argument only works if people are divided into discrete camps, with minimal overlap. Something which is common in some games, and probably also Infinity. However, if there are players willing to play both Yu Jing and JSA, then the dissuasion and isolation doesn't automatically follow. Yu Jing players needn't necessarily feel dissuaded from playing a new faction they already have many models for - and I doubt CB anticipated peoples' feelings on this. Granted, they may not buy everything that gets reproduced, but the Keisotsu box, Tanko and new Aragoto might be tempting enough in their own right. If you sell a few more boxes that way, rather than whole new army packs, you're still making money! And, for people playing JSA alone, well, they may pick up some Druze, or maybe some Haqq, to play Ikari. And, then, maybe branch out in those directions. It's not necessarily about making big investments, but smaller purchases. I think wargames companies in particular need a sustainable business model that lies outside army release schedules, otherwise faction or model generation creep sets in, and the old complaints about GW and Privateer resurface.
Yup, I also find the naked capitalism of Uprising to be distasteful, only I was more tempted by the models, and my ninjas. But, it is what it is, and the world turns that way...
Was it a failed decision? I don't think any of us know the sales figures but I'd be willing to bet the JSA re-release was hugely successful. Also there is the concern of a vocal minority. The Yu Jing forum's reputation right now is that it is overwhelmingly negative, but look at that Power Creep poll. Three times as many people in the poll think YJ players have great troops than feel that they are being overtaken! Sometimes when we say "we are unhappy" we mean "the people posting their displeasure in this thread."
Your arguments are fairly poor. I started playing Infinity maybe 3 or 4 months before Uprising. I was pretty excited, I had a nice variety of vanilla Yu Jing models, mostly painted up and ready. Then all of a sudden I couldn't use (just over) a third of them. Corvus Belli didn't manage the situation at all and the bad taste it generated just snowballed. Why would I be motivated to start buying a completely new army? I would have loved to eventually buy into JSA as a sectorial, but of my own choice, piece by piece in my own time, using the new models in my vanilla lists. I decided that I could buy up a lot of second hand ISS in the firesale, so I stuck with the game. The local community is great too.
I think the split has been really good for the JSA as a force. It allows CB to double down on that aesthetic without it diluting yu Jing. And it's obviously a popular aesthetic by the relatively large uptake shown in kurage. Could they have handled the changeover better? Maybe. Could they have released ia around the same time, maybe. but I think it would have been competing for similar players. And I also think the rest of the player base would feel like it's just yu jing hour for 3-4 months.
I'm not arguing that this fits everyone. Nor am I uncritical of the way it pushes people in a certain direction. My point is that there is some business reasoning behind it, or at least a long-term strategic view of having sectorial forces within factions. If it's not for you, it's not for you. I'm not here to persuade you to buy JSA - if anything I'm counselling caution that the new releases will somehow atone for Uprising - I don't see them as intended as either apology or restitution, just another means of selling toy soldier.
This is because the question,and the answers are not pointing towards the real issues. The issues are yujing's cripled flexibility and fluff. Not being the last monkey or lacking good profiles. And the real question i if IA is really gonna fix that perception But please, I'd prefer if we cut the grieving topic here. The 2-3 pages before this were interesting to read and brought positive and useful info. I don't want to go back to "CB doesn't hear our justified complains and has given a lot of crap to our faction". It's too early to say we've been forgotten and AI will not worth it. Let's wait for IA fluf, rules and at least a couple of months of playing
I'd phrase the question slightly differently; is IA going to be a sectorial that we want to play, on its own merits? Because, that's probably all we're likely to get. Looking further than that might be ultimately disappointing. I don't mean that it won't add to vanilla Yu Jing either - whatever makes it interesting on its own will only add to the faction as a whole. Edit: for my money, the early signs are promising that we'll see a faction with enough intrigue to merit a lengthy stay.
All this talk about Uprising reminds me that there's a marketing side to Third Offensive as well. And they've handled it a lot better. Montessa change aside, they've given ample warning about most changes and additions. The few spoilers have got people talking and playing to figure out what's coming later in the month. The Montessa change was a poor choice as it shows CB are still willing to invalidate customer purchases on a whim, though. And it is telling that it was the only part that got Uprising'd into Army with no warning as part of the Acon update. Nevertheless, it's nice finding out about a new book through a series of entertaining and (slightly) informative videos instead of taking to the Internet wondering why half your army isn't in Army. Edit; and for the love of Dog, CB, take the JSA units out of the Yu Jing catalogue and store! It's been almost six months and futzing with database records isn't that hard!
Frankly, I'm not. I've thought about starting MO not long ago, and I might play them, but I won't buy any models for them. I play Haqq too, but the only thing I might buy is Maggie, maybe some bikes. As Uprising was happening I was considering joining Warcors as our small group all got introduced to the game by me and we live in an area unlikely to ever get one. The nearest LGS is about 100 miles away to boot. Then suddenly I can't use the stuff I've bought. None of us have much spare cash so it was a bit of a kick in the teeth that the Japanese bits I had and used I now couldn't because army changed too. Incidentally none of us bothered with ITS accounts. The proposed solution was to proxy. So that is what I'm going to do. Not one of my group has spent a penny on Infinity since Uprising and we are starting stuff like Rumbleslam and Gaslands because it doesn't require such an investment in cash, learning or time. And the rules come in the box, so if a faction changes we can just ignore it if we want to. Confidence in the future is fine, I'm sure IA will be great, but none of us feel the need to buy stuff anymore.
As a new player who got into Yu Jing with Red Veil, this has all been very disappointing and off-putting. I'll try to keep my comments limited to IA. I just want to start that showing up to the Yu Jing forums with the below arguments is getting old: "Just wait an see" - Yes, but you see, people said wait an see from the Uprising. We waited, we saw, it was exactly what it was. "Why are you still here, leave the forums if your so mad, vote with your wallets, etc." - Why can I only vote with my wallet? Screw that, I like Infinity, I want Corvus Belli to know when they are doing bad and I would like to let them know so they can do better. Okay with that out of the way... I never expected IA to be a good sectorial. I expected it would play as poorly MO (lists heavy on order sergeants excluded). I expected the faction to be flavorful and the flavor is an elite team of HEAVY infantry badasses. What is a heavy infantry? At least 2W, 3ARM, "solid" stats (BS 12-13, PH 12-13, you know, the stuff on Tankos, Riots and Zuyongs). That is what most people imagined when you first heard Invincible Army. And maybe people wondered how CB would pull off a playable army, how could they fit those stats in 300 points in a ten order list? The answer was that they couldn't. They showcased the Invincible army with LI with the HI name slapped over them. Disappointing*. I'm not even annoyed I can run Zanshi in IA, since I'd like to run the Line Trooper line, even if it's the wrong sectorial. I imagine they will be removed when White Banner drops, just like Fusiliers were recently removed from MO. And for the record CB, I had only Zanshi's in my Infinity Army account, because they were in Red Veil. I didn't have Keisotsu's YET, because they were old old sculpts, I was waiting for the inevitable resculpt...... Sorry for all of you who are tired of gripes, but I am not sorry to Corvus Belli. DO BETTER. *I'm having fun with them in vanilla. Those "Shang Ji" in my Army lists place-holders, not actually being played, thanks
To say the true, what was presented just made me think "well, vanilla has now more choices – not bad and there are other models to see". Starting IA? No, thanks, but no. I have a feeling, that's not the sign of a good presentation though...
See, if they'd led with the mowang, for instance, that'd probably have been my response. I guess that's one of the merits of the sectorial approach; there's probably enough to tempt a vanilla player to get at least something, and you can always tempt others who have multiple factions...
Just gonna drop a small pouch of cents here... I won't say IA is dead YET. With 3.5-ish more units yet to be fully disclosed ( Hai Daos, Daoyings, Hulongs and we still technically don't have the ENTIRE Mowang profile. Not even gonna mention the idea of maybe Shang Ji getting at least a new shine of polish on a single armor plate or two. ), it's still a bit too early to completely write the sectorial off completely. Granted, this is now banking on the remaining unrevealed stuff being good enough to make the sectorial good enough as well, but still, I'd wait for at least maybe two more profile/unit leaks/reveals. Now as for how IA will impact the remaining faction... ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh I actually like it so far? I mean, so far, we have: Mowang ( Still, not the full picture though. ): Yeah, it's a giant beefy S5 HI. In a faction... full of big beefy HI that may or may not be S2 or S5. On one hand, it's ANOTHER beatstick. On the other, so far it seems like a different enough high-cost beatstick HI to differentiate itself enough from the competition, that being how so far it's shaping up as the ''Extremely durable yet SWC cheap and actually looking kinda affordable'' beatstick. Which is a brand of beatstick we don't yet have, since we have: Beatstick that can kill people in three different ways if need be, the Crane. Beatstick that starts halfway up the table, the Daofei. Beatstick with MSV2, the Hsien. Beatstick with TO CAMO, the Hac Tao. Beatstick with the firepower of a TAG, the Yan Huo. Beatstick that can run ridiculously fast and apply the gentle touch of a BS14 Spitfire from most anywhere, the Su Jian. And I suppose we can also mention the budget beatstick, the Zuyong, and the budget beatstick but with different guns, the Wu Ming? So, even if the Mowang ends up as just a beatstick... at least it'll be a beatstick that's different enough. Zhenchas: Hacker profile notwithstanding... even despite the gripe of ''y u no hav shock immunity''... I like how it looks so far. I mean, call me crazy, but 34-37 point infiltrators ( Also, I just noticed they can try to make an infiltration roll on a 10. Which is... better than most infiltrators, so... yay? Kinda? ) that can hold their ground pretty well ( By Skirmisher standards. ), can tank a crit from non-Shock/Mono/Viral weaponry if need be, has a mobility related skill and a nice SMG+Mines profile and a decent BSG+D-Charges ( Hey, it at least helps with missions involving objective busting and in the event you get the ''Make building go boom'' classified. ) profile... sound pretty nice, even with the drawbacks of being hackable ( GRanted, might be biased due to there not being anything resembling a repeater network here, since... since when does Ariadna have a strong hacker presence? ) and not being shock-and-instakill-equivalent immune. So, I think it's perfectly serviceable ( And actually fits the bill of ''~30-35-ish points unit that could feasibly pull it's own weight in combat and/or missions for the cost.'' Which is something I hear YJ lacks ATM? ). I for certain will probably use them a lot, prolly two even, if two different profile models will ever exist. Liu Xing: It's... nice? I think it looks nice so far, even if Explode LX is ech. It costs quite a lot more than a Tiger, yeah... it's also quite a lot more durable than a Tiger. Yeah, no Mimetism stings in the shooting department, making the Tiger a better shot in basically every situation. But the Liu Xing has the Bioimmune NWI, so it's KINDA like having two wounds, slightly better armor and actual BTS. So for actual dedicated combat... I'd actually prefer the Liu Xing. Being able to tank a single template or mine, things that'd stop a Tiger and mandate relocating it, is rather nice. Yes, it costs... 7 points more for a BSG or Spitfire profile ( Extra SWC as well. ), but 7 points more for that single free risk you can take seems fair to me. And the specialist profiles seem nice to me: Bioimmunity and an actual BTS stat above zero means that the AHD, unlike on the Zhencha, where that is simply asking for a swift death by Trinity ( Also rather swift for the Tiger as well. ), can work decently and not expose you that badly ( You were already hackable to nearly every hacker device, so it's not like you make your situation that much worse off. ), and can KINDA be used as a very ramshackle makeshift way for defending yourself from enemy Hacking by way of Blackouts ( You can't expect to have a PERFECT defense against hackers for your AD HI, I suppose. ), and the Specialist Operative has D-Charges and a MULTI-Rifle, so... yay, objective busting, and both specialist profiles work for achieving a decent amount of Classifieds, extra yay. Will people vastly prefer a Tiger in vanilla though? Yeah, probably, at least for objective runs that they don't expect to find too much resistance on and bullying the enemy backfield... but the Liu Xing is IMO JUST good enough to be an option worth consideration if you plan on needing to delve into a more hazardous midfield than a Tiger could handle. Although Hacking probably hampers that a lot, but I'm pretty sure it's a better idea to have a Liu Xing wade through minefields and templates than a Tiger. So... I can see it having a role in vanilla. Ofcourse, I can't stress this enough, but this is just my opinion, that is undoubtedly biased by my local meta being... REALLY hacking starved. Like... nothing more than a single ''REM tax'' hacker usually, and that's if you are not playing against Ariadna, which quite a few here do. So consider me not yet baptised by a proper repeater network crammed full of Interventors.
From the spanish podcast. -Haidao, up to 1 Haidao can join any fireteam in the sectorial -Taisheng, counts as Zuyong for fireteam composition -Zuyong. Core, Haris, Duo -Haris especial: 1 Zuyong haris + 2 Yan Huo FTO -Yao Kong Son Bae, up to 1 Son Bae can join any fireteam -Panguling, up to 1 Panguling FTO can be join any fireteam ShangJi, wildcard Keep in mind you Haidao, Son Bae and Panguling FTO are like wildcards but limited to 1 in each fireteam Haidao confirmed as Engineer option. Daoying are dedicated command units
This is nothing compared to what what YJ players have experienced previously with Ko Dali, ISS being terrible and janky, and none of the QoL changes we got with N3. Tongue in cheek comment aside, YJ is the redheaded step child and dead horse all in one neat red haired centaur shaped package.
Ok, Just to shut up the endless weepers. Revealed info this weekend related to Invincible Army and Yujing in the "ORA Crítika" podcast (spanish podcast) At least 4 wildcards on invincible (haidao, shang-ji, panguling & son-bae, including some FTO versions exclusive for linkteams) Haris of 2 yanhuo FTO +1 zuyong (probably the Multi HMG and the 2x missile launcher huos) It's confirmed that the Haidao has at least one engineer profile (and can be in all Invincible fireteams) Explosion LvX works as a direct template of damage 12 normal, centered on the liuxing. It doesn't explode if only markers are affected or if allied or neutral troops are affected. NCO (NCO) can use lieutenant orders as regular orders An those orders can be spent by the rest of the fireteam members (in resume, without breaking the link or having to be spearhead) - The invincible character has NCO and is a woman - The mowang can access to NCO Now Marksmanship X Ignores cover completely. Suntze and the pheasant sniper win a whole. - Pheasant BS21, B1, reducing -3 from camo mods, DA and also canceling partial coverage mods to BS and ARM. Tactical sense: It grants its user an extra irregular order for this troop, which can not be transformed into regular. However, if this troop is part of a fireteam, it can spend that irregular order without breaking the fireteam There will be Shang-ji with tactical sense (being wildcard) Lieutenant 2: the lieutenant generates 2 orders of lieutenant I think you're going to see how this will work in invincible ... Almost Total polyvalence on fireteams (shame on tohaa) Link of zuyongs stump with 13-14 orders (10 + 2teniente + 2 Tactical sense) or Mowang with 12 orders behind (it is said to have NCO) You can even put a sanji in duo with the mowang to give the 13th order Or haris of Yanhuos on steroids Now we only lack the profiles themselves to begin to make cheesy lists
You sure about that? If so, the liu-xing looks a tad lackluster. It's not mind-blowingly terrible like seed-embryo, but I guess it'll be relegated to taking down clumped soft units like REMs and LI without dogged or NWI. A bit of a shame, but I still love the liu-xing's two wounds.
