Was OSS released early just so TAk can get a punching doll?

Let's say it works, and you did that. None of those Camo markers should reveal a trooper you can shoot from your DZ, instead requiring you to come in much closer range, with approaches including mines (from Minelayer). Then you spend a bunch of Orders moving up your attack piece to engage one of the ones revealed, maybe get rid of a mine or two first, and by the time you're done you used up an Order pool to kill a Scout or maybe couple of Foxtrots. Then it's enemy turn. Enjoy.

 

Yeah, but Aleph sensor bot has climbing plus, do its really simple to clear the table when camo are revealed

 

Is there a good video or text (with lots of pictures) batrep where someone used this maneuver against a good opponent doing Camo-spam?

 

I thought the context here was facing a TAK list with a dozen or more Camo markers in the mid-field? Given the limits of terrain, those markers are going to be either clumped up, already visible or far enough back that they're not in the mid-field.

 

So is TAK camo spam end of Infinity as we know it?;)))

 

Nah, just people getting overly dramatic ;)

Depending on army, terrain, and amount of enemy camo Sniffer rush takes 1-3 Snifer bots, 1 Sensor bot, and about three orders, two of them Coordinated. Move-Move, Move-Deploy, Discover... most of the midfield. Also, denying the possibility of re-camo, unless the trooper moves out of Sniffer range.

 

Ariadna does not have any really good ARO pieces so there is pretty much zero pressure from their deployment zone to do such manoeuvre. Like someone already said, having at least two 8pts bots and a sensor clears most of the midfield in 3-4 orders and 2 command tokens, such utility units should be in the second smaller group. And if Ariadna player decides to reveal some decent and costly camo ARO piece (cateran/swiss/tankhunter/spetznaz) to shoot 8pts bot then it is your happy day - they just threw it away.
After revealing opponent's camos, your own attack piece or infiltrators, from the main group, should have an easy job to either clear whole midfield or make a successful attack towards opponent's deployment zone. Ariadna's infiltrators can easily be beaten by active turn advantage plus supperior visual mods (odd/TO) or tech advantage (visors/better weapons).

The only issue is to win the lieutenant roll off and go first. Although I can imagine that camo spam can provide some problems to less experienced players or those who play some funky 1CG lists or without sensor at all - taking a sensor has been mandatory in meta since like 1 year.

 

You don't need good ARO pieces to stop a Sniffer from getting too far upfield. All you need is a few Forward Observers or Sniper Rifles with somewhat limited lines of fire covering a few fire lanes, all of which are cheap in Ariadna. Preventing your opponent from revealing your far-forward infiltrating camo markers is as close to impossible as things get in this game, but not the ones you positioned more conservatively - those you should have a fighting chance at keeping in camo.

 

Maybe the Sniper Rifles, but an unlinked FO only has about a 1/3 chance of doing anything to the Repeaterbot even when unopposed (thanks to Mimetism and BTS3), so it's probably going to be ignored.

 

This brings us to the subject of terrain and deployment. Analyzing the table, identifying potential ARO lanes, and deploying in a way that allows to move crucial units out without much of a problem are basic Infinity skills.

And if there are such fire lanes, and I know they might give me trouble, I cover them with both my ARO and assault units, so I can use brute force approach. OSS has access to five HMGs, two of them linkable. And that's before exploring the subject of other weapons with good enough reach, or units with special deployment skills.

I do get some of the arguments, but I disagree that getting out of DZ is much of a problem.

 

Yeah. You're going to need more than one to be more certain. But challenging Sniffers when they try to cross the midline should be fully possible for Ariadna and also a fairly cheap investment. There's no such thing as "no good ARO" when all it takes is 1 moderately lucky hit and you are talking about distances where you should be able to stack those moderately lucky chances.

Sniffers is absolutely a good solution to the problem of multiple camo, but I do not think Ariadna is in a bad spot to challenge the tactic, either, if they recognise that the tactic might be used against them.

 

People are not using Frontovicks HRL as ARO pieces ?o0

 

Did you not read the post that was being replied to?

 

Generally speaking a strong but conservative ARO set-up to cover approaches to your DZ and aggressive troops to get into their backline and tear into their order pool works well against Camo spam.

Also stuff like linked HI with range and heavy weapons. Go ahead, reveal your Spetz HMG to shoot my Riot Grrl ML. Spend your orders to die. Send warbands into the action to reveal and template and/or intuitive attack. Happy to run 8pt Morlocks into your camo field and see what happens, hope your 24pt Strelok with ARM 1 doesn't roll a 12 or less, or get lit up by an Assault Pistol.

 

2 sensor bots, really. In case Ariadna goes first and nails one.

 

Why is the Spetzna HMG shooting the riot girl at her good ranges? Doesn't Camo mean that a (not-bad) player can just double walk out of her line of sight or into her bad range bands? B4 at BS 16 beats B2 at BS 10 even if you're playing on a bowling ball and don't have anything else on the table for your Spetz to shot.

Heck, maybe you should turn your attention back to the point of this thread and do the comparison against OSS instead of your Starco shit.

Do you think the Yadu HMG will fare better against the Riot GRRL ML link? The Yadu is comparable in role (active turn HMG-range shooter) and points (only 3 points more expensive) to the Spetzna, but requires a full link to get even close to the same level. If you were shooting someone who didn't have SSL2, or didn't have a visor, the Yadu will NEVER get the same gunfighting advantage a spetzna has over a MB link, Yan Huo, or a TR bot.

Anything other than a linked Riot GRRL (which is as close you can get to a counter to all the spetzna skills and abilities) will get wrecked by the Spetzna far more so than the Yadu. Do that comparison with Mobile Brigada and see how well your 170 point link team fares.

 

It'd be B4 at 15 vs B 2 at 13 which is still sufficiently risky that it's not ideal for the TAK player, especially as the Riot Grrl can soak a hit or two and the Spetz can't soak a ML shot. The Spetz is also doing a MOV opening itself up to discovers, and the Ariadna player is spending orders to do this. Sure it's an active turn BS attack from a great (but fragile shooter) which is always going to be dangerous, but not unbearably so. And I've faced it, and beaten it, so I know that. A Swiss Guard HMG is also hitting on 15s and the ARO is hitting on 13s in the same situation, and the Swiss Guard is not some sort of unbeatable power troop either. "Oh but it costs much less for a Spetz!" yes and it is strictly better at shooting people, has 3 more ARM and 1 more W, has another -3 to hit it and gets hidden deployment. Woe, woe for anyone trying to face NCA...

Also StarCo can't take Morlocks, obviously, so this isn't StarCo I'm talking about from the context of TAK camo spam, but rather Bakunin. But hey since apparently you're going to complain about any other comparison, let's talk about it from the OSS perspective! The Yadu HMG is not a Spetz HMG, and they have different strengths and weaknesses. Let's see... the Spetz dies to templates because 1 W and ARM 2 on a relatively expensive troop, the Yadu doesn't because ARM 3 and V: NWI. The Yadu can also spend the LT order itself, which is pretty damn useful, and is Veteran (essentially immunity: E/M, something that you see a lot of around and about these days). The OS doesn't have a Spetz but it does have the Asura Spitfire who is as close as you get to a hard counter to camo spam in Infinity), the Posthuman Sniper, the Dakini link team (MOV 6-4, with Mimetism, at that price! BS 13 when you put an Apsara in!) OS gets stuff that doesn't die to chain rifles, actual TO Camo, Actual MSV2 and MSV3, REMs to boost... TAK stuff is mostly 1 W, low ARM, relatively expensive and reliant on the camo state to protect it, with basically the links and the Spetz being the sources of firepower.

Spetz are good. And not cheap and quite fragile. But very good. However, they are not the end of the world, as has been seen because they have been out for a while now and not nerfed due to them being eminently murderable. OS is a very nicely designed Sectoral and perfectly capable of beating any other force that you might see in the game. If you cannot beat TAK with OS it is because you are not as good as Infinity as the person you're playing against, not because TAK is straight up better.

There you go, engagement with the thread!

 

3 orders from a second pool built to do just exactly this job
Anything watching DZ to DZ that isnt at least camo is dead, any camo that procs to deal with a sniffer bot is probably also dead
16 diameter circle, thats a huge chunk of the table, even more so if you have the abillity to coordinate that Move-Drop sniffer to get 2 sensor bubbles down (you do this in 4 order effectively)

So firstly, the main point being argued is that "too many markers" is the problem, not knowing whats undert hem ect. so yeah procing them all out of camo takes away one major strength of camo spam, namely that you dont know which marker/model is which, where are the mines and ambush markers.

Once its all revealed none of that information is ever going to be hidden again yay

Secondly, You cant recamo in a sensor zone, so nothing proc'd in this way gets to use the major power of camo to be in a marker state (unless you are really going to spend orders shooting at sniffers) nor does it get surprise shot or attack and is not free to move around the table at whim any longer. Basically they are now playing with mimetism

Thirdly, you know what else combos fantastically with sniffer bots? Guided and Specfire!
But even without that, if your opponent wants to use those camo markers as "aros" as has been argued is their real ARO strength in TAK, then those markers, models and mines all nessicarily have to be in a position where they can, at some point actually ARO against the active players troops, relying on their camo to choose when to fight.
Ergo if they lose the ability to choose when to fight after they were positioned in a place to ARO, they are in a place where the active player may now attack them.

 

While all this is true, it's true for the few infiltrators near the centre and nothing further back. Which is exactly the point. This is the whole point of layered defence.

Again, that's all fine. You'll spend the turn removing that first layer of defence. I keep saying, you'll get to do that. And then the rest 14 Orders get to ride roughshod over you during their active turn, and redeploy mines making it hard again to get at the core of the list.