That is why I said most often. And your list is skill as well. I go with 80 % skill and 20 % luck. It is still a dice game.
Yeah, that's about right. The List/terrain/mission matchup shouldn't be a matter of luck or separate from skill, because you should know terrain and mission before you select your list! (except for tournaments, of course)
The first important thing to remember is that wargamers want different things from their games and enjoy different aspects of a game's design. People who enjoy Infinity like that it is complex, cinematic and intense. Some (to most) wargamers don't like those things. Some people play games for a mental challenge, while others don't want to have to think too much. If someone would rather play Killteam because it's simpler, it's likely that they are part of GW's target market, rather than CB's. Which is fine. Having different games cater to different types of players means those games can do so better (rather tham trying to please everyone). Infinity being complex is awesome! The problem that is getting brought up is that it's getting convoluted and messy, making Infinity more difficult to actually play (often referred to as complication, where complexity is the good cholesterol and complication/convolution is the bad cholesterol, clogging up the flow of the game). The rules need a serious edit. Just from a clarity and translation issue point of view. Also pruning, CB needs to sit down and consider whether each skill actually makes the game better, or just clogs things up. If it isn't irrelevant 90% of the time because it takes a rare ammo type into account then we probanly don't need either. Also, similar things with slight differences are great for confusing players. Have a concept and then keep it for as many things as possible, so that if you have that down then you are a "like that but x" away from understanding many other things. Just have white noise be smoke, but against MSV; for example. The Nomad puppets are a good example of how CB should be doing new rules, awesome new concept, works like a fireteam with a little twist. Having a new rule that is pretty much an old rule, but with differences that you have to be careful about (and are not obvious) are not good and don't make the game better. So the rules have to be bloated because we need a version of a rule without a nested skill?
That is my opinion as well. I switched to Infinity from products like 40K because of that. I really have to say I don't feel Infinity is messy. Not at all. What would help though is a rules team or rules guy who visits the forum frequently and answers/addresses questions, problems and so on in a couple of days. At the moment the community has questions and the discussions escalate all the time. For no reason at all.
Infinity is certainly still playable, saying it isn't messy at all is a stretch. I think it's worth addressing before it becomes a problem, like driving toward a cliff. If you've played 40k and Infinity I can see how it does not seem like an issue. My other game of choice is Kings of War though. KoW's rules are not complex, in fact Mantic seem to have set out to make a game with as little convolution/complication as possible. It's not a game that's dumbed down or doesn't require thinking though; it's just that it comes from your opponent. The thinking, thought process and your actions in the movement phase feel complex. Out thinking your opponent takes thinking and you need to do it to win a game. The rules feel elegant, simple parts coming together to make a thinking game; some people call it fantasy chess. I'm NOT SAYING Infinity should be simplified to that level. Playing a good game on the other extreme puts complication into perspective though. It demonstrates that simpler rules don't make a game worse (necessarily) and that CB can be smarter (or more elegant, if you prefer) about how they deliver the experience. We can definitely have the experience we enjoy with cleaner rules.
You're gonna have to direct that at the developers. I'm just pointing out that Guard doesn't do what people want to "simplify" it to do since it's already the most simplistic version of a combat skill in this game.
So much of this! For me they always stressed the philosophy of "keep it simple stupid" or KISS when working on rules.
Frankly, Infinity is not scaring off many people by rule IMO. What I think mainly is about the people actually playing it. Whether they got a good atmosphere, or a cozy community. When people are good and make newcomers feel fine, the complexity about rules could work as a good chewy beer table issue, not a quarrel. Still, aside from lucky few, we all know 'that guy' who damages the whole gaming scene. When people start to feel obnoxious over tolerable level, they start to move out, and a good explanation to avoid personal attacks will be like 'Dunno, rule is too complex, Im not getting it.' That leads to an emotional level dispute. I like this game, and I heavily understand say it needs some good cleanup, but I don't think rules are scaring people. It's just an excuse. Because I left Warmachine just like that, literally dumping off my full collection of Cyriss army. Say hell to good rules, I didn't want to get along with obnoxious people anymore.
Yuuup;) As I said, its not Your game, its You;) To keep people in game You need to create good enviroment.
Anyone who plays enough games eventually learns the timeless truth that when you lose, it's only a game. And when you win, it's a fair test of applied intelligence, deep strategy, daring tactics, and luck having nothing to do with it at all.
We are need of an N4. If shooting people in the back from the front, and engage meaning your non climbing+ dude gets screwed because he is now glued to a wall, and you have rules repeating themselves with variations that are not functionally necessary (guard, MA, Proth), alongside point costs being out of sync as stuff isnt updated (cost of drop bears on bolts versus new profiles), as well as needing an entire write about about how the heck link options work, your game has trouble. I find it highly suspect if anyone tries to argue these are "healthy" things that add to the game.
Yes and yes, and double time yes for Infintiy being TOO complex! We had new players, we taught them in easy way, step-by-step. First games with no CC, CAMO, Hacking etc., continuous rules add. Aaaand... first play on tournament, some more plays after - we never see those "new people" again - find out that rules do not interact with each other well, that you can turn off your "stealth", that you can provoke change facing aro to jump to CC on next short, that you can put model who engaged you in ARO on a wall to kill it easily afterwards... and so on and so on... I think that Infinity IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. There should be huge billboards all over places, especially on infinitythegame.com - this is HARDCORE game, if you want some results on competitive scene (and you want to be competitive - but I'll talk about it shortly) prepare yourself for spending evenings on infinity wiki, ifinity forums, arguing on forums, learning FAQs... Prepare to get use to thing, that rules - are PAIN. And probably CB forgot, that their game is the hardcore game, that you can't throwing new rules without looking on previous one, that you have to test and fix it (and make regular FAQs -that is fate of all complicated systems) or to simplify it in order to keep it functional. Or maybe people are buying so why to bother...? Maybe that is a solution? Lets stop buying infinity figures and books, so CB would be more motivated? :) 2 years with Infinity, two years on different forums, lots and lots and lots time on reading, re-reading, complaining, arguing on tournaments, loosing because of rules-based mistake, winning because of playing wrong, winning because of playing right :) and still...still I'm discovering that I was doing something wrong, not to the rules... And Im not the onliest - I'm seeing it constantly, from players of all levels. That sometimes killing the will to play further. Game is fun, game is great - but meeeh... more and more often I'm having an idea to enjoy and play 40 pages max of rules of some Shadespire or similar... Now, why would you play Infinity only competitively (EDIT forgot to add "in my opinion")... You've learned 200+ pages of rules, you finally find out how holoprojektor works with all exceptions and possibilities, you've been successfully keeping in your head those 200+ pages during whole match and ... you're stressed, you're thinking a lot, you try to maximise your odds - Infinity is not a game you play just for fun, when you'll play according to majority of its rules, this game becomes something more, something like a sport, true competitions and fight against your opponent, against disluck\opponet's luck, against mission. You sacrifice to much for the game, in order to have a nice proper match. You can't have beer-level-of-fun - you fought with rules, you fought your opponent, you've used too much of your brain grey matter. What if game designers do not improve Your game, and there are alternatives, where you can spent less time, you don't fight with strange ruleset and have more fun - why should you ever spread "disease"?
Speak for yourself. EDIT - please don't take this as an argument against your other points, but 80-90% of the Infinity players I know play for fun, even if they're at a tournament.
Actualy beer and Infinity meetings in pub are very popular among my community;) Always were;) Beerfinity works.
GW succeeds because their great and deep setting and fun minis make it work. It succeeds in spite of the rules, not because of them (Also, shadespire is legit as far as competitive games go)
I guess, you're right... People definitely can play it other way. Edited my post, that it is only my opinion ;)
I cut the rest of the post because this is one part that really, really bugs me. I'm aware of all these exploits, I have friends who are aware of them, and we have ostensively talked about how dumb they are. And we all have an unspoken agreement not to use them. It's one of the reasons why I think our community is healthy and growing: Because people generally care about winning and being competitive, yes, but not at the expense of the other oponent's fun. At the end of the day, we make our game. We can be very annoying and exploit the game to win, and alienate the other players who aren't willing to do the same. Or we can just have a good time and not focus on these extreme examples. It's the same opinion I have on the Intent vs RAW debate that's often discussed: I play intent because intent is more fun and makes things easier. Please notice this doesn't excuse bad rules writing, and it also doesn't mean the game can't improve. But blaming the rules for what is, in the end, human failure is not healthy either.
Shooting people in the back from the front is really important though, it means a model can't face a wall and cover both corners. The engage thing is not legal, I don't see why that gets brought up. An engage has to follow the general movement rules. The rest I agree with, but I don't think an N4 is necessary as much as an N3.5 though. Clean stuff up, take care of the really problematic rules (superjump), and put together a big FAQ on how intent works in play.
it gets brought up all the time because it is legal I mean climbing still fallows the general movement rules after all. If they want to clarify that it is not legal I am 100% on board however.
