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Noob help

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Charbe86, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Charbe86

    Charbe86 Member

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    Hi, I recently aquired some Aleph minis, listed below, and I've been doing as much research as possible, but I just can't get my head around list building. I would really appreciate if you guys could give me some example lists and explain the reasoning behind them, please.

    Aleph starter box
    3x dakini tacbots
    Asura
    Naga hacker
    Deva functionary

    Steel Phalanx starter box
    3x thorakitai
    1x myrmidon hacker
    1x agema marksman
    1x Eudoros

    2x Mk1 proxies
    1x Mk2 proxy
    1x Mk3 proxy

    1x Achilles

    1x Marut

    2x Deva funtionaries with devabot

    Aleph support box
    1x Sophotect
    2x Yudbots
    3x Netrods
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Heavy hitters: (only one at once, unless Limited Insertion): Achilles, Marut, Asura.
    Achilles demands a Myrmidon Officer with Chain of Command, however, since he is best used as a Lt (and use his order all the time).

    Fast specialists/ Suppressive fire midfield roadbumps: Dakini tactbots (use as Paramedics for missions that give +3 to the WP roll to specialists).

    Cheapest Lt option: 2x Deva with Devabot, they are exceedingly good against camos (even when not having any MSV), your tactic there is to move both the deva and the bot, and wait ARO; if not ARO then Discover (with both!), if yes ARO fire away, if you failed the discover... second order: Intuitive Attack with both Deva and Devabot!

    Smoke source: use Myrmidon hacker as 16pts chain rifle Myrmidon, keep her close to the Marut or the Asura for bodyguard duties and smoke combo. Another option is to use her with your 3rd Deva (using her as Spitfire+MSV) or the Agema (mk12 version is great for using on the floor).

    Thorakitai are best used as cheap (12pts) side coverage, you want them on the sides to prevent AD troops entering from there unopposed, and if you move forward your Dakinis and use a Coordinated Order to place them in sup fire, include a Thora as the 4th member. Also, they are a better option for an engineer than the Mk1 Posthuman unless you are fielding the Marut, since the Mk1 Medic is the best specialist in the game, no contest.

    My favourite combo is Mk1 medic, mk2 hacker, mk4 rocket launcher (I use the female Wu Ming on blister as mk4, and Uxia McNeil cover action as Mk5). The Mk5 with Mk12 is a trap (barely cheaper than the Agema, but with no XVisor and paying for a skill he won't use, the Marksmanship X), but the FO is good, and the Mk4 HMG I don't like to use it (the HRL has same ranges, and the SMG has AP and Shock ammo options, which I find better to go forth), while the Mk3 is good and fast but I usually prefer to spend the SWC elsewhere (but it's good for LI games).

    The naga hacker is a good midfiled model, but use it as a Killer Hacker with a Mk2 hacker, if you prefer to use the mk2 sniper (I don't like it, but a lot of people do) then use the mini as FO, minelayer or monofilament miner.

    Eudoros is... not very interesting in vanilla. If you can pass him as Myrmidon Officer with Chain of Command, then great, if not, use him only for Biotecvore.

    The Sophotect is a very good option for a fast specialist, and your primary candidate to get a Yudbot servant, but if you deploy no STR based unit (remotes, marut) you can leave her at home unless you want to have a second medic.

    As for example lists, I do them depending on the mission and the extras. Assuming none, my starting block is:

    Mk1 Medic, Mk2 hacker, Mk4 HRL (10+21+20 pts, 2.5 SWC) [the mk4 pulls ARO duty, with a second model).
    Deva + Devabot x2 (one is Lt) (27 pts each)
    3x Dakinis (regular or Paramedic) (13-15 pts each)
    2x Myrmidon chain rifle (16 pts)
    3x Netrods (4pts each)
    Sometimes 1 Sophotect (31 pts)
    1-2 Yudbots (3pts each)
    1 Danavas H+ (25 pts, 0.5 SWC)

    And then I adapt: if I want more firepower and expect heavy opposition, the Asura Spitfire is a good option, the Nagas or one Dasyu can provide midfield control, the 8 points Lamedh are good extra order + ARO support pieces, etc...

    As for future shopping, I suggest the Rebots box (forget the Probots box, and use instead the Haqquislam's Khameels as S4 remotes, they are more in line with the rebots aesthetically and are easier to assemble), the Dakini HMG blister (so you have all 4 models ever made), and the Danavas hacker blister.
    A lower priority but interesting shop is either the Myrmidons box or the Myrmidon Spitfire Blister, I prefer to carry 2 for bodyguard and smoke duties.
    The Warcor should be always in your collection unless you only play Tohaa/EC!
    Finally, an AD trooper is interesting. I like to have the Boarding Shotgun Garuda (it's an old model converted, but a new one is scheduled for February) at hand because it costs the same points as the mk2 hacker, and my enemy won't know which one is in my list, but an Ekdromoi is also a good option (even better, since it has a specialist option), pus Diomedes is a really good profile (not as good as the Fraacta or her Tohaa cousin, but... few are).
     
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  3. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Hi there, Charbe ;)

    This is the basic info that I believe to be a good starting point.

    Don't get too attached to the lists; I can count on my fingers the instances I've played with the same list twice. List building is a very fluid affair in this game :)

    First of all it's best to get some training at lower point level - start at 100/150 pts, play a few games, add another 50, play a few more, repeat until getting to 300 pts. It gives a good foundation to build on, allows you to learn the basics without getting overwhelmed, and gives you a good deal of knowledge about your faction.

    There are also some basic guidelines to consider when building a list:

    - Orders are life: you want to have at least 8 Regular orders in your main combat group, so usually you won't go overboard with Irregular, TO or AD troops.

    - Weapons: it's usually important to cover all range bands. Good rule of thumb is to have at least one long range weapon (sniper rifle or missile launcher), 1 HMG as a general go-to, 1-2 Spitfires on assault troops. If you plan for close quarters battle (CQB), you might want to fit in some templates, shotguns, and so on. They're also a good deterrents for your defense. This is of course for 300 pts - in lower point games there's not enough SWC to fit everything.

    - Specialists: 5-6 various specialists both for scoring and dealing with various situations. Engineer is invaluable if you run TAGs, Heavy Infantry or Remotes. Doctor is useful most of the time. Forward Observers are good ARO troops, able to blind enemy units temporarily. And I see you already know about hackers ;)

    xagroth made a very nice analysis of what you have and what can you build with it. I'd just add not to rely on Posthumans too much from the beginning: they're a very strong unit, considered overpowered by many people, and they can end up being a crutch.

    Have fun :)
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Yup, forgot about the Crutch Syndrome... You will have it if you use heavy units (Posthumans, Marut, Achilles and, to an extent, the Asura).

    A 150pts list with Aleph is best limited to 10 orders, my suggestion is something kinda this:

    [​IMG] ALEPH
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]8
    [​IMG] DANAVAS Hacker (Hacking Device Plus. UPGRADE: Maestro) Combi Rifle + Pitcher / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] DEVA Lieutenant Combi Rifle, Nanopulser + Devabot / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] DEVABOT Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
    [​IMG] SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    [​IMG] DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PROXY Mk.1 Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] NETROD . (0 | 4)

    0.5 SWC | 150 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    You use the Posthumans here, but only the "light" versions that let's you see how they work (the only shenanigan they pull here ir 4 wounds per 20 points! Also, the medic can heal herself). IF you are playing among friends and are new to the game, change the Danavas hacker for a Thorakitai Engineer and add Netrods and a Warcor as needed. This means the list is not ITS valid because of the Dakinis without a hacker, but the truth is they are the "basic Vedic Troop" at this moment, and if you are not going to use the hacking rules, it's better to not pay an extra 20 something points.
     
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  5. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    You can't whip your head around it, because Infinity is very complex games, with lots of different traits and combinations of these, that give different roles to seemingly similar troops. Add to this, that the common way of playing in Infinity is via the ITS missions, meaning that each game will cater to different troops, and thus list tailoring.

    Instead of taking in the big picture all at once, start out with some smaller games, like starter vs. starter. This way, you'll only have to learn, what your own troops can do, while your opponent will invariably demonstrate other traits via his. The various starters might not be balanced pointswise, but don't let this bother you, they'll have all the assets you'll need for a fun game.

    This way, you'll learn the ropes of the game. Orders. The point of traits like specialist, camo, MSV or smoke. The 'uselessness' of close combat, and come to terms with the high lethality, and that you can't get attached to a single mini and rely on it to win the game. You'll understand what aspects and tactics, that you like to leverage e.g. do you want a 'rambo' like the Marut or Achilles to pound the enemy, or do you prefer an underhanded game of camo tokens to win you the game – or a combination of both and more.

    So in short; stop asking and start playing. You'll have much better questions after a few games.
     
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  6. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    It's funny how Stiopa gives you another nice advice with his signature phrase "
    "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

    Never expect things to go the way you expected, and when you build your lists, always try to have a backup. I'm not saying you should have a double for everything, but rather you can answer the "what if ?" question. Like "what if my sniper got crited on his first action ?" "What if my big Achilles goes down ?"
    Some usual backups are the posthuman MK5 used as a killer (he won't be your main battle piece, but will often end as your backup), the dakini paramedic, the thorakite FO, the daleth (i find these REM amazing), big Machaon himself (what ? Achilles got killed and i'm the only real soldier left ? OK fine, let's win this) ...

    As Xagroth said, you should first invest in some reboths (they are all amazing, well appart from the samekh) and a danava.
     
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  7. Charbe86

    Charbe86 Member

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    Thanks to all of you, this will help a lot. Sounds like a good start will be grabbing a mate and setting my starter boxes against one another.
     
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I suggest you check points with him, some starter boxes are 150 ish points, other are not... For example the Shasvastii one I think exceeded the SWC allowance for 150 points, Aleph's one is closer to 150 points while the QK one is quite low in points, etc...

    Playing at 150 points to start with is quite a good option, and I advise against using the Asura for that (since she is quite hard, and can melt camo lists like butter while not using at all her MSV3 against non-Camo lists... plus the NWI interaction with having 2+ wounds means having to look after Shock ammo since the last FAQ).
     
  9. Charbe86

    Charbe86 Member

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    I know the SP box is about 20 to 30 points short of of the vanilla, how big a deal is it?
     
  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    For SP it is at least one order (two, if you go 12pts Thorakitai + 8 pts remote), but they are more or less balanced to an extent. The problem is that you need Thrasimedes to link those Thorakites (or Alké if you go with the more avaiable but much more suboptimal other thorakitai enomotarchos), while Eudoros will be running nonstop unless linked (fortunately, you can link him with the myrmidon) and his smoke works against the Asura's MSV. On the other hand, the Asura can be deployed as Hacker Plus, the Dakinis can proxy any profile but for the HMG legally, and a sniper dakini with supportware and white noise on top of it will kill the Agema quite fast (but it will burn 3-4 orders).

    As you can see, points are not the real balancing here ^^U
     
  11. Charbe86

    Charbe86 Member

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    Ok, I think I get the idea.
    On a side note is there anywhere that spells out optimal combos like that? I know I read somewhere that the dakini are better off with a type of hacker not included in the starter box, for example.
     
  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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  13. Charbe86

    Charbe86 Member

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    Thanks, I'm trying to get through the two rule books before I finish building my minis, but it's a hard slog.
     
  14. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    For a while balance hardly even matters. For new players whoever picks up on deployment faster tends to get the advantage while in low point games a few good rolls turns it. So I wouldn't stress too much about making the links well or being exactly even points. After some matches you can swap around profiles or who's linked and figure out what is working best for you.
     
    #14 loricus, Jan 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  15. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    Spice it up with some YouTube battle reports, and check beastsofwar’s introduction videos - they did them in collaboration with CB.

    Oh and do note, that batreps might not be the best way to learn the rules (they’re usually quite faulty), but they’re great for getting a feel for the game, and getting to know, what the various factions have to offer.
     
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  16. Charbe86

    Charbe86 Member

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    Will do. I get the feeling Aleph is a bit of a raw power faction, compared to others, is Steel Phalanx just more so?
     
  17. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I wouldnt say Aleph is, but Steel Phalanx definitely is. Vanilla Aleph has a lot of tricks available and has very good troops (compared to other armies) to perform it. Very good SK with Nagas, Dasyus, excellent hacker with Danava ...Able to use smoke, eclipse and white noise in the same game ... Pat is also very good in vanilla and gives some holo tricks to the army. In contrary, SP does not have SK and has a limited access to hackers (and most of the times you will see Scylla not exactly for hacking purpose, but rather for flaming duty :p ) So less tricks. But in exchange, few things can really stop an enomotarchos team from a rampage.
     
  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Aleph has access to almost all tricks (smoke combo demands having greeks on the list), but aside from specific troops all are "elite/veteran" regarding stats. That means yes, you can go and force a raw force test, but no, it's never a good idea, since you will either be at a disadvantage because of the enemy having more expendable troops than you, or you will be running almost unacceptable risks because of how the FtF system works in Infinity.

    Think about the "high stats" more as having a backup than a main plan there. And having high WP with template weapons means you have almost two chances per unit to neutralize an enemy camo per turn (discover and, if fails, intuitive attack).
     
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  19. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Regarding Vanilla, I see it more as the toolbox faction : we can use every trick in the book : AD, TO, smoke + msv2, eclipse, holo, long distance shooting (multi sniper/hmg), short distance shooting (rifle, spitfire), hacking, good SK, good WB, good rambo, good defense...

    Short of playing a massive numbers like ariadna, you can do anything you want, even if it sometime come with a heavy point cost


    Regarding Steel phalanx, i agree it has much less tricks (but still has more than a few) and is much more focused on raw firepower

    ps : while I don't fully agree with everything they write, 1d4chan have an interesting unit by unit analysis of steel phalanx and vanilla aleph :
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Infinity/N3_Tactics/Aleph
    https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Infinity/N3_Tactics/Steel_Phalanx
     
    #19 Arkhos94, Jan 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
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  20. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    I've got quite an extensive collection of Steel Phalanx, as I like the models. The default playstyle however is quite limited. Throw a bunch of fireteams together, charge and kill the enemy. Very much what you see is what you get. You can of course tweak the experience a bit, or focus more on the REMs, but at the heart of it, this is what the Phalanx is good at - shoot, kill and stab for fun.

    Vanilla opens up a bunch of different options; some of the best infiltrators in the game, a plethora of amazing specialists - and even outside the phalanx something as simple as a myrmidon spitfire is still one of the best gunfighters in the game. Not to mention that Phalanx troops such as Achilles and Patroclus adds much more to the vanilla, than their native phalanx.

    One of the oft overlooked traits of Aleph is the MOV 6-4 trait. It is a pretty fast army, and where other armies buy 'useless' cheerleaders, the most basic trooper of Aleph – the Daikini Paramedic – can win you games. Mimetism (and possibly Marksmanship Lvl 2), can make it an excellent gunfighter, and MOV 6-4 can get you a specialist to an objective quite fast, push the button and then set up for suppression fire (cover+mimetism+SF= Opponent BS-9).

    When playing Aleph, you'll always be lacking orders, but your orders will never be wasted, as your troops will be able to do the job. But dubbing Aleph a 'raw power' faction is a bit of a misnomer, we don't carry the biggest guns – although we do carry the shiniest toys.
     
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