IF it's correct. We don't know that it is. It's pointless to try to reverse engineer possible point costs and theory craft what a unit would cost if it was different, it won't change anything. What we can do is look at all the things that the Zhencha does REALLY WELL and find ways to utilize it on the table.
Which is the key. The Zhencha is arriving, and it’s arriving the way CB designed it, not how well intentioned forumites wish- and theory-crafted it. The options are to find ways to use it, or to leave it out. Saying what it “should” or “ought” to have is moot.
So many things to reply to... Damn straight. And my initial issue with the Imperial SS was more that they were being incompetent, not brutal. Then it doubled down from incompetence into War Crimes. Yes, YJ in Outrage was very competent. I mean, YJ was the reason the entire Op on Svalarheima was blown... Imperial SS in the Uprising, not so much. And this. Point of order, I was complaining about lack of competence first, then lack of morality. A big chunk of that is because as of 2 years ago, the Tigers were supposed to be part of the Invincible Army (it's written right there on the Tiger Soldier dossier). So what we were expecting was that the Liu Xing was going to be up in the 50-60pt range. Admittedly, we were wondering how that was going to work, but it would have been unique. Instead, we lost Tigers in the IA and got a unit that has Tiger stats with different skills. The Daofei's fluff has been that they are the Tactical Section of the Invincible Army since the start of the game. Then we get told that the Daofei isn't going to be in the IA. We also get a 'replacement' for the Daofei that is only slightly better than the Guilang. Massive failure to manage customer expectations. Again. And you, YueFei23, can go fuck off on my ignore list for the rest of eternity. Yes, that would address my concerns with the Zhencha itself. Doesn't address my concern as to why the Tactical Section of the Invincible Army is not in the Invincible Army sectorial. No, it's not a good HI because it cannot eat a wound from a mine and survive.
But it fills the skirmisher role, not a HI role. So we should be comparing it to other units that fill the same/similar roles, not strictly based on classification.
Sure, but there's a group around here who won't be satisfied unless literally every single thing they put onto the table has the HI label and 2 wounds. I mean, a lot of those same people seem to expect to be able to field a balanced list with 10+ orders made up of entirely HI labelled units with 2 wounds in 300 points.
Yes, which happens to cost nearly twice as much, has less versatility, and is even more vulnerable to hacking as a specialist.
Honestly, I think the biggest thing surrounding the whole NWI vs 2W thing is that it feels a lot like a bait-and-switch or shoe-horned method of making the Sectorial have more HI. It's not that 2W would instantly make the unit(s) better/not vulnerable to things, just that they don't feel like true HI - and we've been expecting a true HI Sectorial for literally years; and that's what CB has been touting that whole time: a true HI Sectorial. And it's been touched upon before: most of us recognise that a full HI Sectorial is probably not going to work without significant non-HI support troops, as HI are just too expensive in general to run a solid 10-order Combat Group without skipping on some key elements (eg, midfield presence, good Mod troops, etc). But that doesn't change the fact that we'd been expecting (due to CB saying so) a full HI-capable list. --- @AdmiralJCJF - just a heads up/acknowledgement, some of us definitely appreciate the cross-faction support that you have been giving! It has been reassuring to hear from at least someone outside of the faction that some of the things some of us say isn't entirely ridiculous! --- To be honest, I'm still eager to get IA. If CB truly fumbles the ball on IA balancing (and fails to recognise/rectify it reasonably swiftly) then I'll be upset, as it's pretty much The Thing that got me excited for Yu Jing back in...something like 2008? Shang Ji are the models that solidified my desire to play YJ over any other faction; their supposed HI superiority furthered that (although in N2 that "superiority" was a laughably bad line!); and just generally the YJ lore, but particularly the sparse IA stuff that we had, was something that really appealed to me (I really like my 'elite badass' type armies!) Hopefully, CB will pull out the stops and make IA really good (ie, we still have four more brand new units to see, and hopefully they'll take a real long, hard look at units like the Shang Ji which desperately need help). I truly mean that - if they do it right, I'll actually want to play again, for the first time in almost two years (ISS can only hold my interest for so long!).
It would be nice if the Dao Fei is here, but he aint. Probably held back for the next sectorial along with Guilang, Tiger and Shaolin. Yes, I know that isn't gonna happen any time soon, but game design is usually planned in advance. A cheaper alternative is actually a good thing, seeing as how top heavy IA is likely going to be.
Well, this argument certainly isn't bringing two sides to any kind of compromise or understanding. However the side that can play Zhencha with some flexibility are more likely to have a happy year than the side that can't see any way it's a useful unit. That will be it's own reward.
Honestly: why? Why does it actually cost that much, especially compared to something like the Zhencha? Apparently Shock isn't that big of deal (according to many voices), so NWI is pretty much equivalent to 2W ARM4 vs ARM3 really isn't a big jump, so that shouldn't be contributing much to cost (although it probably is, because CB seems to think middle high range ARM values are totes amazing) Its loadout options aren't particularly incredible, when you take a good look at them! They get one primary weapon, a nigh useless Shock CCW (with craptastic CC16!). Zhencha don't have particularly outstanding loadouts: the SMG is obviously the best, and that's because the SMG is apparently a crap gun (according to CB logic) and packs multiple other pieces to round it out into a toolbox; the Daofei actually doesn't, it's a pure beatstick - so the cost isn't being jacked up by having multiple roles/tools Stats: aside from 2W and ARM4 (mentioned above already) it's got three stat increases: +1 CC (utterly irrelevant), +1 BS (good, especially needed for a purely shooty HI), and +1 PH (solid, and pushes the PH into a good range). The BS is probably what contributes the lion's share of the increase in cost, and that's understandable considering it's an Infiltrating Camo HI. That's it..? Honestly, I don't actually understand why the Daofei is as expensive as it is - I mean, I like my Daofei, they're cool and all, but they've always been slightly hit-or-miss for me. Sometimes they'll do great if they can dig in to what they want to engage; other times they're not much more than a regular HI. To be fair though, d20s utterly fucking hate me in Infinity (I've literally had multiple games be decided in my first turn, going first, by my opponent just constantly critting me/my dice massively betraying me! No joke!) So yeah, I can kind of understand why the Daofei is expensive, but it actually doesn't seem to espouse the Yu Jing HI ideal (which seems to be versatility/adaptability to unfolding situations), which seems particularly out of place for an infiltration/'lone wolf' type of unit (hell, their fluff has their final test being dropped into Shit City, Nowhere, having to badass their way out and scrounge and fight to survive; that doesn't really come through in their honestly pretty bland profile!) Anyway...somewhat rant over
@Kallas Exactly! Why is the Daofei held to such a high regard when the Zhencha is obviously so much more efficient for the points? The Daofei is a superior attack piece with the availability of the HMG/Spitfire profiles, but the Zhencha is a far better camo specialist.
If you think that's weird, you should look at the Prowlers :) Can we have a Nomad/YJ exchange where Prowler gives Zensha Bioimmune and the point cost associated with it?
Good. Finally we're sweeping some salts out. I see some constructive people actually trying to overcome this, not just bitching over. I too expected 2W fatboi army, but it comes to sense that would made a lot of problems - IA couldve ended like underrated MO, hugging around Zuyongs like magisters, etc. CB made this design for intention. Whether it is (mostly) unappealing for fandom or not, I'll give a go. Besides, it's a new sectorial army we all waited, and I think Daoying Lt2 option is pretty neat... along with Zhencha and Liu Xing.
