I mean... There's all that Kinematica, all those nano pulsers, automed kits and visors integrated into the power armour profiles along with paramedics, FO's and hackers and that battlecat that should actually be a TAG along with a TO and an infiltrating Camo HI, and TAG weapons on an S5 chassis, Deflector L2, and that's just the stuff currently on Army, Some of it is even affordable like Wu-ming and Zhyong. I Play YJ because the power armour is better and more fun to play than the CA stuff.
I mean, that's fine and all, but on the Infinity scale that doesn't really come across. We already have MO that is plenty capable of fielding HI forces at least comparable to ours. I'm not really sure about the others (Haqq in QK kind of? Nomads in Bakunin/Tunguska? Tohaa in a weird, artichoke way? NAA in Starco, Ikari and JSA certainly can) but from a very brief look it looks like there are comparable forces in the Infinity scale. While this could certainly be ascribed to the scale not sufficiently showcasing YJ's HI superiority...it would be nice to actually see it. IA does look to have some solid advantages over those others, though, predominantly in their variety: we'll have multiple line HI, support HI (possible pseudo-HI), and multi-attack-vector HI/pseudo-HI (Liu Xing and Zhencha). So that's good! Maybe once we have the whole IA Sectorial available to see we'll actually see Yu Jing's HI superiority on display. Considering that I (and so many others) have been waiting for IA for many years, I truly hope so.
My brief foray into ArmyBuilder says only Prowlers have specialists that have shock immunity, camo (but I mean can use a camo or TO marker, not just Camo), and infiltration. I'm happy for people to set me straight on this - I'm trying to see who else has the combination of specialist toolkits that the Zencha has. My next look is Climbing Plus specialists with a marker state, and also those with FD instead of infiltration, as suggested. The underlying assumption is these are useful skills to have, on any specialist chassis, and form a complete package in and of themselves. Meanwhile, just how broken would the Shikami actually be with TO camo instead of ODD, and infiltration? I suspect quite.
I think looking for these skills just to tick boxes is not actually going to yield any useful data as that runs on the assumption that the skills or skill combinations themselves, in a void with no regard for the faction or unit they exist on, are valuable while ignoring the why of calls for a heavy infantry to be somewhat similar to what other heavy infantry are. If they had been MI, it wouldn't have caused an uproar. If there is a HI-specific synergy, CB has failed to show it, but that doesn't really address the problem of devaluing the classification. Shikami? I am not sure how broken it would be. Significantly more useful absolutely, and it would make for another unit that makes the midfield terrifying against JSA. It would, however, be a very, very, expensive unit. Being a bit reductive, imagine a Ninja with better ARM and another Wound and more swords. It's actually not that big a deal compared to what the Oniwaban already are and mostly just make it even harder to make lists in JSA. Not that this comparison really makes any sense to bring up in context of Yu Jing since it's no longer a Yu Jing unit and unlike Zhencha it is a melee unit whose mayor drawback (or problem to solve) is getting to their victim from the DZ.
Prowlers are possibly the one bad Nomad troop and if I could swap them with Zhencha I would do so immediately tbh
On the topic of YJ HI superiority: I've always saw this in how YJ HIs are a bit more optimised and well constructed when compared with their most direct counterparts. Look at Aquila vs Hsien; PanO puts full emphasis on firefights, with BS 15 and MSV3. Hsien has -1 BS/+1 WIP, loses one level of MSV - which doesn't affect much, given poor cost/value ratio of MSV3, gets MA1 (and, consequently, Stealth and Courage), usable CC level to go with its CCW, DTWs on all profiles, loadouts with shotguns or Deflector, and more Lt. options. What it loses in focus, it gains a few times over in versatility. And it still costs 1 pt. less ;) Similar, though less pronounced case when it comes to posterboys, Swiss vs Hac Tao; the latter sacrifices a point of BS to gain +1 WIP, Kinematika, Nanopulser, better CC and CCW, all for the same price. It also has access to KHD and EO. Pretty good deal. Next, ORCs vs Shang Ji - YJ unit has superior BTS, access to DTWs and Deflectors, Kinematika. All in all YJ's superiority doesn't mean their units are able to utterly stomp the opposition into the ground, but that they can push their designs just a little bit farther than others; from some minor stat tweak, minor skill like Kinematika, access to DTWs, through Stealth, better hacking protection with Deflectors L2 and better BTS, to some unique combinations, like Shang Ji being the only HI with Infiltration+Camo (Montesas were their counterparts to an extent, but not anymore). Again, this doesn't mean other factions can't get unique things, just that YJ's stuff will have an edge most of the time. In the same vein PanO TAG superiority doesn't prevent the existence of Marut, Sphinx, other unique things like Xeodrons, Overdrons, etc. But it means that most of the time PanO TAGs will have an edge over their counterparts. Now, rumours and partial reveals we've just got are making the situation more complex. For one, we're seeing just the kind of toolbox units that were the YJ's thing (I'm talking mostly about Santiagos, I'm blown away by the changes, even when taking the loss of Boarding Shotgun into account). What's more, CB is clearly in mood for experimenting with their previous design philosophy, and the results are mixed. New "HI Lite" for example; Liu Xing is awesome, I'd gladly take it in any of my armies without a second thought, regardless of how Explode LX will work. Zencha is a huge, camo'ed question mark. It shapes up to be very vulnerable to mines, which are pretty common in its designated enviroment. I think its lack of Shock Immunity is a serious mistake. When it comes to IA composition and operation - I expect full changes to make it a very well contructed, balanced and flexible force, with few problem children (like the aforementioned Zencha). When compared to MO - its obvious counterpart - I expect a twist of the usual faction strenghts, with knights holding an edge in CQB and CC, while IA will have better long range fire support options.
You had me briefly running around looking for a Zhencha KHD reveal until I realized you were probably talking about MO =(
I suppose I don't see this as an analysis thrown into the void, but rather in a well-defined context of ITS missions and Classified Objectives, although I absolutely take your point about the faction-specific context (such as complementary or competitor pieces). The argument on HI is tangential to this core competency argument, although it does have a bearing on the wider picture, for sure. Similarly the question of Shikami is more about the ITS framework than model stats. Granted, exclusion zones make infiltrators redundant (so it isn't universal), but does having an 'unstoppable' button presser make the game unbalanced, and to what extent?
Sorry that wasn't my intention to make fun of you here. Yes I was directly refering to the MO changes.
You WILL find the Zhencha to tick the boxes because the Dsyu proves it, and the Zhencha exists in a sectorial likely to have less competition in the mid-field button pushing department. So that's not really the issue. Saito proves you're not unstoppable even with smoke. Shikami can take a wound better but is largely worse in melee and that smoke is really something. Take some give some. To the JSA subforum with this maybe?
I'm gonna take a guess and say that the Yan Huos special Haris will be two Yan Huos and a Guijia just for giggles.
I'm thinking the Yan Huo Special is a Special Duo. Even though they say Special, they don't say what kind of Special. I highly doubt they would do a 3-man link with them. A duo with who or what, I can't tell you.
You're right, but I'm bored of this point because it doesn't actually mean anything. This is an apples to oranges comparison because all these units play a different role to Zhencha. Ratniks and Blackjacks are S5 walking tanks, of course they're not going to go into shock and die if a sniper hits them. Let's just knock them out of the comparison for that reason. Of the rest of these, the only one with an in game durability advantage compared to the Zhencha is the Veteran Kazak. He's a gunfighting, veteran unit wearing heavy armour made from Teseum - one of the most expensive resources in the human sphere. Yu Jing do not have buckets of this unobtainium sitting around. The Mormaer has the same stuff, but because he drinks Whisky instead of Vodka he only has dogged. The rest of these units have shock immunity and one wound, or 1W and dogged. They either need a doctor or paramedic to get them back in the game at the cost of some orders, or are basically out of the game after taking one wound. This isn't *so* bad as quite a few of them are hmg toting backline troops you'd want to get back on their feet to avoid losing the SWC you spent, and they won't have moved far away from the doctor. NWI is strictly better than that, especially on a model that infiltrates forwards. A Zhanshi Yisheng is not going to be hanging out in midfield, and you'd have to waste multiple orders getting a helperbot where it is needed. Against a lot of conventional attacks and lucky crits, your Zhencha is still in the game after taking a wound. He will win games because of this. He is cheaper than he would have been with 2W because of this. That's what we've got to use and we'll make it work. The real HI secret sauce seems to be any technology that gives a unit ARM 3+, PH 12+ and the mobility to move 4-4 or better while being able to do a push up so they can go prone. Most are hackable, some are not. Many have 2W, quite a few do not. Some are shock immune, some are not. Some are remote presence, many are not. It is unlikely your point will change CB's mind on this unit. Also no, you can't have a pony.
So play the game. Tank the mine hit on one of the many other HI in your list. Stride past it with your MoWang, blowing another unit away as you go. Trade it for a wound on one of the cheerleaders in your 5 man link. Maybe drop a Liu Xing on the infiltrator that dropped the mine... and take the mine out at the same time. Failing that, you've still got great chances of dodging it. By the time we see the full list, we will have more problem solving options. For all we know the Daoying could give us superjumping holoechoes you can fling past mines on a tall building... we just don't know yet. Throwing tantrums over minor "non-negotiable" traits of the first units to get teased is so ridiculous. Why does one unit have to do everything you need? Other elements of the list will need to support your scoring plays, just like every other army.
My argument (well, the discussion I might be having with myself and others) is about what a broken midfield objective scorer might look like, and the varying degrees that it might take. And, ultimately how close a 2W Zencha might get to it. If only to see how close it is to that. I guess the rock-paper-scissors equation means very skilled units need a more obvious flaw to balance? But, that's just a hypothesis, not proven theorem!
For the umpteenth time, I am not talking about the Zhencha losing NWI to get Shock Immunity. I am talking about the Zhencha being BOTH Shock Immune and NWI! With what they've done in the last year? Fuck yes I am terrified that CB will take that idea and run with it! Because the Zhencha is the only Infiltrating model we know about! Therefore it must do every infiltrating-model task for the army. I don't understand why that isn't self-evident.
The Zhencha is still the third (or second depending on how you define it) most durable Camo infiltration specialist in the game, and it's the cheapest of the three and the only one with climbing plus. How is this in any way bad?
