The Hac Tao has three big differences, the KHD profile, executive order and a nanopulser. I feel like those make up for the BS difference. The Aquila has a similar set of utility differences -- the bonus of MSV3 over MSV2 really isn't huge, but the Hsien's higher WIP and lieutenant profile are nice. It's also a bit cheaper which makes a difference in a faction with 5 point orders. And no one takes more than 1 Orc if they're playing seriously. Orcs are most comparable to Shang Ji (who also have a DTW). Daofei has something straight up better than mech deployment. YJ has tons of options that are just cheaper though -- there's no Zuyong HMG or Wu Ming chain rifle SMG in PanO. Half of the knight profiles are either trash or inferior to something else in the faction, whereas in YJ at least most of the HI are viable (barring the Shang Ji).
PanO HI are very good at shooting. Problem is, if shooting it in the face didn't work, have you tried shooting it in the face? That's honestly about all PanO is good at. Yes, there are some knights that are good in CC (defined as CC >=20), but knight AVA kinda puts a kibosh on that and you can take 7x knights in 300 pts now. Seven Knights in vanilla! ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 7 1 KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 44) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 41) KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE Combi Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 51) FATHER-KNIGHT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 50) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) KNIGHT OF MONTESA Combi Rifle + Light Rocket Launcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 50) TEUTONIC KNIGHT Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 36) 2 SWC | 295 Points Open in Infinity Army This was optimized for least SWC, all the Knights are AVA1. You could swap stuff around if you wanted, but every model has a CC above 20. Add the Seraph (CC20), Locusts (CC20), two Krakots (CC21), Joan (CC23), and De Fersen (CC22), and you have an AVA of 13 models with a CC above 20. Actually, there are more PanO HI good at CC than there are YJ HI good at CC now that JSA is gone! The Crane is the only remaining YJ HI with a CC 20 or above! Hsein and Hac Tao are CC19, so borderline competent, and Shang Ji are CC18. Everyone else is CC15 or 16! Max AVA of Yu JingHI with CC>20 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 2 CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT Lieutenant (Sensor, X Visor) MULTI Rifle, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 52) CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT (X Visor) Spitfire, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 54) 2 SWC | 106 Points Open in Infinity Army That's really it. So, what faction is the CC experts again?
while this is a good mantra – it kind of falls to pieces when you outfit all of your units with weapons that can't actually find a face to shoot over 16 inches. ummm.... JSA?
I wouldn't view CC20 as the metric for what constitutes a good CC trooper. Spetsnaz are CC20 with MA2, but I don't think anyone would advocate they should be trying to knife someone, instead of shooting them at Camo BS15. This is particular true for PanO, where lack of smoke, Camo, etc basically means you don't have an effective delivery system for any of these platforms, whatever their CC stat might be. The only PanO unit I might use in CC on a regular basis are Magisters, because the combination of linkability, cheap 2 wounds, aggressive role, DA, Hyper Dynamics, etc. makes them pretty well suited for it. Sadly, Magisters are only AVA1 in Vanilla, so this conversation only becomes relevant to MO. Other PanO units might have high CC values, but (like the Spetsnaz) that doesn't mean they'd ever be better off CCing than Shooting. If I'm a Montessa, shooting on 17s with high Burst is doing me a lot more good than trying to swing my sword.
Yu Jing isn't the CC faction. It's the "Jack of all trades" faction. And it was that way at least since N2. And CC stat alone isn't the metric of a good CC troop. To be a competent CC fighter the unit needs at least some skill to skew numbers in its favor, to offset the fact that he's attacking using only one dice. MA, NBW, Guadian, iKohl, Berserk, Then we can talk about being competent in CC. High CC stat + CCW is a reasonable deterrent against units that aren't too competent in CC, or simply bloat.
Nah, they're the "Masters of all trades" :P @barakiel: Actually Spetznaz Parachutists might find themselves in a good place to use CC from time to time. But the rest of the argument stands.
I completely agree. The important word is "almost"; there as some occasions, few and far between, when you might prefer to go for CC instead.
CC20 means they're good enough to actually consider the idea, instead of it being a fatal-for-them idea. Maaaaaaybe CC19. CC18 I'd honestly say is not good enough to consider the idea. Troops that are really good at CC, like Domaru, are CC23 with MA3 (and Berserk, in the case of the Domaru). In exchange for you having about a 75% chance of hitting them (they have 2W, so who cares if you have a knife), they have a 60% chance of critting you and killing a 1W model outright. Even without Berserking and making it a Normal roll, they hit CC26 (30% chance of crit) and inflict a -3 on you, making your successful roll range from 7 to about 12 (30% chance of succeeding at all, because they get a +6 to their rolls)
Assault is an extremely underrated CC skill, in that it's very order efficient. I've seen a Father Knight sprint into CC with a Clipsos before, literally move, Clipsos shoots, FK moves again and just bounces the hit, FK assaults and cuts the Clipsos in half, two orders to cover 16" and kill a valuable enemy trooper, pretty good! Also CC skill above a certain point is basically bloat. If you have CC21, MAL1 and a decent CC weapon and/or PH then you're a cuisinart in CC against 9/10 troops you'll encounter, and with ARM and W you can even soak up the odd fail. Knights are pretty good in CC in my opinion. They should really be using it against targets where it's inefficient to shoot and/or they need to advance and claim ground (one of the other benefits of CC, often). Hospitallers, for example, are a great troop choice. I don't think anyone could deny that, especially when linked. Tough, great in a firefight, good in CC, not that expensive.
Someone left Clipsos out of Marker state, without mine support, and suppresive fire ? What a nice opponent to have! Noone complains about Hospitallers. They are actually "usefull ORCs", an example how bad "plain HI" is without "fury discount system".
This can happen on turn 2 or 3. You've done something with your infiltrator, but don't have enough orders to hide them again. Mines could detonated already, and HI can risk tanking them anyway. That's not true. Plain HI have their uses and ORCs are actually ok (and I'm looking forward to their new options), problems begin when they have to compete against discounted counterparts. But at least in vanilla units with Frenzy actually have to worry about becoming Impetous. That being said yeah, no one complains about Hospitallers ;)
If you're in the open a d a clipsos pops, it's like 40% or something chance to do 1 wound if the fk keeps running, then on the scnd order spent, the assault order is like 65% likely to kill clipsos and 12% chance of losing a wound. If you shoot for 2 orders instead from the open, you're less likely to take 2 wounds, but there's waaaay lower chance of having killed the clipsos with your combi rifle.
so, following the new CB trend, what surprise out of the left field are you guys expecting when Varuna drop? smoke? WB? a Guard Heavy? a Superheavy? some new strange rule in the new guys? Also, what Aleph units? (new Andromeda looks much better now)
