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When Is Falling Damage Rolled For?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Space Ghost, Sep 30, 2018.

  1. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    Question is in the subject line - the rules are a bit vague on this and I can't find a FAQ or forum topic (old or new) that clarifies. The situation that prompted this question was:

    A Kuang Shi's controller got isolated in my Reactive Turn, so the KS started my turn Extremely Impetuous while prone behind a rooftop parapet - the most efficient way for him to close with the nearest enemy was to stand, vault the parapet, fall 6" and then move towards the nearest foe. Doing so would have then let him use his second short skill to Chain Rifle his target (which was too far away to Engage with just a 4 inch move.) The question became - when do I roll for the Falling Damage?

    RAW this should have been in the Resolution Phase (which would have let him get the Chain Rifle shot off regardless, and is also in keeping with the "All at Once" rule.)

    On the other hand, common sense says to make the Falling Damage roll immediately, which is sort of (but maybe not quite) supported by the Falling Damage example: "The Fusilier Angus, being who he is, trips and falls during combat. To calculate how much Damage to roll against in his subsequent ARM Roll, the height of the fall is measured: 5 inches. Since the first value of Angus' MOV is 4, this means he falls two sections, and therefore receives a total Damage of 20 (10 + 10 = 20). Angus makes his ARM Roll and fails, so he loses 1 point from his Wounds Attribute and is now Unconscious. However, having failed his roll, Angus must now make a newARM Roll. If he were to fail that one, he would enter the Dead state and be removed from play."

    FWIW, to keep things moving & friendly I took the ARM rolls immediately and of course died - but am still unsure if this was the correct way to play this. Thoughts?
     
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I was under the impression you can't just walk onto thin air and fall, you need to jump.
     
  3. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    But Prone models explicitly can't Jump or Climb either - so how should I have handled the Extremely Impetuous order my prone Kuang Shi was required to execute? Having him stand, vault the wall, fall and then charge seemed most in keeping with the whole Extremely Impetuous/brainwashed and hopped up on drugs thing. And it also doesn't address when exactly Falling Damage is rolled for (say in the case of a Super Jump that exceeds the maximum safe distance allowed.)
     
  4. SoMann

    SoMann Member

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    To be able to vault you must be able to place the model when the vault ends. That means you can't fall from a vault.
    Jump is a skill you declare and you use it when movement isn't enough to reach your target.
    Damage is rolled in resolution and I don't see how that example say otherwise. There might even be ARO due to a model being activated.
     
  5. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the Falling Damage roll, that's what I thought based on RAW - it's "All at Once," so roll for it in step 7 (Resolution) of the Order Expenditure Sequence (along with everything else.)

    But if you can't fall after vaulting, what's a Prone Extremely Impetuous model behind a parapet on a roof supposed to do? (Since Prone models explicitly can't Jump or Climb.)
     
  6. SoMann

    SoMann Member

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    Why can't you stand up and then jump?
     
  7. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    I was just searching the Wiki, and found the following under the Fury rules - which answers one of my questions, but still leaves me a bit confused:

    "During an Impetuous Order a trooper can never move in a Prone state so he will automatically stand up at the beginning of the mandatory Move, or at the start of a Jump or Climb.

    As shown by the Impetuous Order Chart, an Impetuous (or Extremely Impetuous) trooper can substitute the combination of the mandatory Common Skill Move + [allowed Skill] for the Entire Order Skills Climb or Jump if these are necessary to fulfill his obligation to advance towards the nearest enemy."

    So the first sentence grants Impetuous troopers the special ability to stand from Prone (which you can usually do only while Moving) and then Jump or Climb - so far, so good. However the second sentence then allows an Impetuous (or X Impetuous) trooper to "substitute" Move + (allowed Skill) for Climb or Jump to "fulfill his obligation to advance towards the nearest enemy" (emphasis mine) - which is how I played it (Moving, vaulting and falling "advanced" me closer to the nearest enemy figure than Climbing or Jumping.) But I then should have held off on the Falling Damage roll until the Resolution step, thus letting me get my Chain Rifle shot off too - I think. Thoughts? .
     
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  8. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Well-Known Member

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    Per the rules (as I understand it) you can only stand (or go Prone) at the start of a Move, not a Jump or Climb - Prone figures are also explicitly forbidden from Jumping or Climbing. That said, and as I mentioned above, Impetuous troopers have an exception to this (they can stand before a Jump or Climb) - but they're also allowed to "substitute" Moving for a Jump or Climb too.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    1. Isolating the Kuang Shi Control Device does nothing to Kuang Shi themselves. They are already Extremely Impetuous and unless the Fireteam was also broken by the isolation, their status wouldn't change.
    2. You can't drop down as has been noted. The base must be fully supported throughout the entire move unless you are jumping (this applies to climbing as well, btw, so no climbing on flimsy scaffolding)
    3. When jumping during an Impetuous Order you must do so as an Entire Order skill, thus you can't Chain Rifle while in the air.

    Due to technicalities you actually have two options here:

    1. The monk stands up on order declaration and then declares a Jump straight forward 4", after which it falls and during Resolution takes fall damage of 20 until it succeeds or is dead.
    2. The monk stands up and Moves towards the parapet where it stops and then Attacks, Dodge or Idles as per your own wishes. Making use of this technicality only really works if you're not already firmly in base to base contact with the parapet and is technically a legal way of interpreting of the rules. Technically. It's making use of a rules passage that says you're allowed to stop if the Move path is cut short by an obstacle and is kind of against the spirit of the rules.

    Rule of thumb: never put Extremely Impetuous models on anything they can't vault down from.
     
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  10. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    A couple points like many others:

    Because you can't walk off a cliff, the impetuous models would not be able to declare jump while prone and fall or walk and fall so at best they would walk (or do their little bests) to get as close to the edge standing up towards the closest enemies as they can. (But live they will)

    If they were standing up at the start od that order however and within jumping to their death range, they should do so in an instant, resulting in a potential explosion at the ground level after the fall damage (potentially) damaging them unconscious.
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    As Mahtamori and others have already pointed out, the trooper automatically stands up at the start of the Impetuous Order.
     
  12. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    Unless they can do an attack on their first short skill, or even dodge, then they can't jump or climb on their second short skill. Unless of course they have superjump or climbing plus.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    The movement part of an Impetuous Order is obligatory, you can't avoid it by declaring something else.
     
  14. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Wait. I thought if running and falling off a building was the fastest way to reach a target then that's what you had to do.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You can't run and fall. Only way to fall is to jump.
     
  16. descrii

    descrii Well-Known Member

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    You would jump diagonally down toward your enemy, though. Since you fall from the end of your jump, that likely gets you within 4" of the ground and reduces falling damage from 20 to 10, at least.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Except that's not the fastest route to the enemy :) No diagonal jumping allowed, only straight forward for maximum distance. Every millimeter counts
     
  18. descrii

    descrii Well-Known Member

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    You're required to move toward the nearest enemy figure by the most direct route possible. A diagonal line from my high position to his low one is the most direct route possible. Checks out to me.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Only if you actually reach your target after the fall.
     
  20. descrii

    descrii Well-Known Member

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    There's no such requirement in the guidelines for impetuous movement. It just says I must use the most direct route possible toward the mini that will require the fewest orders to reach. It doesn't say I have to choose the route which ends closest to the enemy. Jumping diagonally down toward a lower mini satisfies all the requirements of the rule and also makes more sense, seems closer to what the trooper might actually do in the situation.

    Edit: In fact, I think climbing down the wall would also satisfy the requirements and not subject you to a fall. There's an argument to be made that the more direct route goes through the air, but it seems like tracing a route along solid objects is a pretty reasonable interpretation of the rule.
     
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