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Name three units per faction you'd want to change

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Stiopa, Sep 2, 2018.

  1. Ursun

    Ursun Tough as Nails, Grim as Old Boots

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    Might be important to ephasize that most stuff was listed for needing a buff, while some entries where pure nerf-whishes, like Ghazi or post humans.
     
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  2. bloodstone

    bloodstone Member

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    Well the post is about "changing" not "improving" (one could argue that nerfing ghazi and post human would improve the game but That's another subject)
     
  3. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Also, there's people here asking for buffs to Spetznaz. So y'know, the mere fact somebody thinks something needs changing doesn't mean much.

    I mean, I want Yadu changed, but many would disagree :-P
     
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  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Yeah, I didn't make that distinction in the charts I've posted, but most if not all votes for Ghazi, Posthumans and Kaeltars were about nerfing them.
     
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  5. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    One thing with Ghazi, tohugh, is that many folks were asking to get them rid of smoke grenades.

    One of the problems I find with Hassassin Bahram is their shortage of staying power: no TAGs, Heavy Infantry only of the light-end type (Asawira and Ayyar), Core Fireteams either rather expensive (Muyib & Govad), or requiring special construction to work (Ghilim with their AVA 4). There's way less in the manner of Camouflage that I would otherwise expect from the Hassassins (only Farzans are your standard Camo Infiltrator, Daylami are far too much hit&miss there. Mostly a miss in my experience!).

    Given that, Smoke is somewhat crucial to many Hassassin army lists. And of inexpensive Smoke sources, there are only the Ghazi (other sources are Fidays and one of the Yasbir loadouts, neither of which are well suited to large-scale use, and Muyib LGL, who again does not compare to Ghazi in this aspect, tohugh he's doubtlessly useful).

    I mean, I'm of the opinion that Hassassins really need those cheap Smoke sources. If you want Smoke Grenades lifted off the Ghazi, there would be a need for other similar models (my personal pick would be the cheaper Daylami profiles, like the basic LSG).


    Also, given how much outcry I hear about cheap smoke Daylami in HB, I am pretty surprised no-one cries as much about cheap Smoke AD L3 in QK, namely the Yuan Yuan. Sure, they are not equipped with Jammers or E/Marats, but for 8 pts a basic Chain Rifle YY costs, I had them wreck many of a Fireteam (bah, and even an Avatar once, though I admit I was lucky getting an E/M CCW on my Booty L1 roll)...
     
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  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Mostly agree, but Ghazi have so many things and trimming one of them might actually be "reasonable"
    Atm they have:
    - (in)famous Jammer
    - Smoke
    - Dogged (frustrating especially during their reactive turn)
    - Chain rifle
    - E/Mauler (EM chain rifle)
    - Obligatory Pistol
    - WIP15

    So if smoke is crucial to HB (as it seems it is), mayby cutting some of the "secondary" armament would be good ? (EMauler+Pistol?)
     
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  7. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    An for me, all of this is a big "mimimi".
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Yes, and that's the major difference.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, smoke really isn't the problem with Gazi, it's the impossibility of getting close to them and taking care of them as a threat combined with their low cost and high AVA meaning they're figuratively everywhere.
     
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  10. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    E/Marat is the defining characteristic of the Ghazi Muttawi'ah. I mean, since 1ed (actually, Chain Rifle and Dogged are there for just as long, soI guess they are core to them to the same level...).

    I don't really give much attention to Jammer, though the CB apparently does, as all the current sculpts come modelled with one.
    It is an useful deterrent in reactive turn, but easier to bypass (since you need a legitimate ARO with no LOS to actually use it in most cases - one that is not bypased thanks to Stealth) than I'd like to if I were to consider it a serious weapon.
    It is much closer, in my mind, to a Repeater with a Hacker beyond it, or a Perimeter Weapon, in the way it works...

    As for Dogged, it is important only as long as you've managed to inflict just a single Wound with no Shock effect. A good reason to have a Multi-capable weapon at hand, or at least an SMG, or other source of Shock.
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Apart from:
    The effects are more crippling than almost all Hacking programs,
    It can be used against any troop type,
    You can't do anything to the Jammer user by winning the FtF Roll.

    EDIT, plus:
    There are no Disposable limits,
    Repeater plus a Hacker behind it is (at a minimum) five times the cost, and both parts are Hackable,
    Very few Hackers have WIP15.
     
  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I consider Yadus to be a hard counter for Ghazi. I know there's the point disparity, but killing Ghazi is just one of the things Yadu can do.

    @Errhile: excellent point about Daylami being a good platform for Smoke. As for Ghazi, specifically Jammer - I don't think you appreciate how unrestricted and easy to use it is. Perimeter Weapons are one-off and can be cleaned out with a Holoecho or a Synchronized drone. Hacker needs a hackable target. Jammer can target anything in unit's ZoC, unless active unit has Stealth. It's a powerful tool, especially on a cheap, WIP 15 unit.
     
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Lets not forget that not all factions have access to WIP15 hackers, and humble Ghazi "hacks" you with astonishing WIP15 ;) (like true pro-uber-hacker xD)

    Even Ariadna doesn't "hack" you with Autocannon on BS15 :P (but Specnaz are not far behind :D).
     
  14. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    We're discussing minute details here, but:
    - you can't do anything to a Repeater user in that situation either.
    - you can't do anything to the Hacker, too, if you were Resetting as the FtF you mention.

    I'm not sure, however, if Jammer can be disabled with the Blackout program (Assault Hackers and basic Hackers have access to that one).
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Sure you can do something to the Repeater user in that situation - you can send you own Hacker up and attack them.

    And no, Jammers aren't Comms Equipment, you can't Hack them in any way unless the user themselves is Hackable. :-(
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but most factions and sectorials still lack a decent counter to them. Veteran on troops not extra vulnerable to the E/Marat isn't quite as common as, for an appropriate example, MSV2 and Sixth Sense that fully or partially counters smoke grenades.
    If all troops designated as Veteran Troops got the Veteran L1 rule, the situation wouldn't be nearly as bad. Edit: or if Light Grenade Launchers were changed to the same price as Wu Ming pays, I guess that would be a workable counter as well, though they'd have to also get a tiny bit more common as well.
     
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  17. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    @Mahtamori: exactly. Most factions are strongly restricted going against Ghazi.

    They should either have their toolbox split against multiple profiles, or be more expensive.
     
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  18. mothman

    mothman Well-Known Member

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    Easiest way to fix ghazi is just remove the jammer on their 5 point profile, the thing that annoys ppl fighting them is they are a no brainer 20 points spend for 4, at 40 points its a bit more demanding for 4 jammers and you might go for some without if you just want smoke

    General
    -TAGS- I personally tags should get one of two buffs

    -come with a "pop smoke" option, with maybe 2 uses worth, instantly deploy smoke on themselves with no scatter, this would give Pan-o access to smoke it wants but not on a cheap unit, is popped as an ARO but is not face to face
    -Either get their pilots order on top of their normal order or an extra irregular order for themselves

    Bakunin
    -MSV2 option, taskmaster would be an interesting one to get it, considering they fight morlocks who keep popping smoke, Bakunin suffers from same issue as Tunguska, no MSV 2 mean mass warbands can destroy them, though bakunin can deal with it better than tunguska due to having their own warbands
    -riot grrls, id rather their points go up than profiles nerfed, 3-4 points up on each profile.
    -The observance needs looking at in general they are mostly all too costly for what they do, sin eaters who should be kings of ARO are out performed by buffed TR bots (Sin eaters wont die as easy but TR bots can be reparied, but most importantly TR bots can reposition and be used actively, its very easy to just ignore the sin eater cause it cant move to a more advantageous corridor mid game) Moiras are good as single picks but kinda struggle as a core link due to costs, their full core comes more expensive than the HI riot grrls they could do with a cheap link filler option with a sub machine gun or chain rifle.
    -this is a 4th one but oh well, rework the prowler he currently struggles for a place in nomad midfield camo, too expensive for the specialist role and not quite tough enough to match up as a midfield brawler to fight enemy camo

    Tunguska
    -MSV2 is main thing holding this faction back, due to its general weakness to melee having no option to stop 5-6 warbands with smoke just chainsmoking their way across the board and bullying you will make it hard to be competitive in some metas (this also matches bakunins issue but is worse in tunguska and an extra MSV2 option will likely stop the intruder being an auto include in vanilla nomads) thats about it for tunguska, I like all their options but think lacking MSV can leave them dead in water if your meta has a bunch of warbands (good luck vs wallace +10-20 dudes).
    -maybe give the KHD and the red fury heckler fast pandas aswell
    -oh one more, give hollowmen a sniper, how can you have your pro csgo esports team without 360 jumping no scope snipers

    Correg
    -Mobile brigada, just give them a few more interesting link options, maybe allow them to join wildcat links or something

    JSA
    -Daiyokai could do with being more focused on being a shooting HI or a CC one, cause atm he pays extra for his dual wield and 2 cc weapons, but at only cc20 he will be beaten by other CC units, and is even beaten by tankos as a CC troop, but he has fatality on an ok gun, so id either make him worse at CC and make him kinda a gun boat to escort 2 domaru to midfield so they can CC, or give the daiyokai beserk+frenzy like domaru and some extra CC
    -add something funky to the rocket launcher ryuken
     
  19. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Well that's a pity, for it would be a logical thing to do IMO.
     
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  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Solution to Jammers:
    Remove Intuitive Attack
    Make them Comms Equipment
    Make them cause ISO-1 while Hacking and EM cause ISO-2.

    ISO-1 can be Reset out of, ISO-2 needs an Engineer. That means that Jammers would still be excellent for stopping units but quite often would leave them able to Reset out of the state on the next turn.

    The result is Jammers stop being so oppressive and gets specific counterplay. Mutts are balanced as Warbands who trade CC and Phys for EM and WIP.
     
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