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Order Sergeants vs Securitae

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Firellon, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. Janzerker

    Janzerker Well-Known Member

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    Huh???????
    Securitate pay nothing for Veteran Lvl 1
    Pricey? For the same cost Celestial Guard can't hold a candle besides Securitate.

    Nice thing rule says Acontecimento is going the Merovingian way as soon as Varuna is released. Acontecimento explodes!
     
  2. TaHu

    TaHu Well-Known Member

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    13 points for basic LI isn't cheap. 9-10 is usual price.
     
  3. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    None of which is new.
    It's also an example of how Corvus Belli doesn't know their ass from their hands when they release new profiles.


    Which is exactly the case. Somehow TAK got given another camo profile(which I might add wasn't their schtick initially, camo was the Merovingian thing but since Merovingia is gone...), one that makes the most comparable units an absolute joke.
    You're ignoring the fact that Tankhunters have gotten a CoC profile and a character toting T2 weapons.

    And that they still are, for whatever reason, one of a very few units toting Portable Autocannons.

    Ratnik shouldn't even be in the game by your logic.

    Remember that what you just said is also bull. CB kept stressing and stressing and stressing that TAK controls "trade" and "technology" on Dawn. US doesn't have jack to emphasize its "high tech bully approach to warfare" considering there's no Engineer units outside of the Dozer. It's the same damn thing as NCA.
     
  4. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    No super-new, no, but it's indicative that they have come through N3 and HSN3 looking better than ever. Not all previously-great profiles can share this achievement.

    That's only somewhat true. Sometimes they spend time on them, sometimes they phone it in.

    Very originally, maybe; I'm in this game since roughly N3 start, and I've spent quite some time on N2 profiles. Since that point, camo has been the Russian thing.

    Yes, they're favoured somewhat. Didn't say they're not. But they are fancy only because of Camo. Remove Camo and nobody would give them a second look.

    ? They tried to give a tricky super-heavy-by-Ariadna-standards-infantry to TAK. That's why Ratnik is as it is.

    In CBs view, as evidenced by NCA heavily, you don't need an engineer on field to prove your technical superiority. USARF got MSVs, it got Flamethrowers, it got Rocket Launchers.

    It's the bully part of USARF that's got the real accent in this story. Not the high tech.
     
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  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

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    Please stay on topic and try to be polite in your discussions and feedback.

    Thanks
     
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  6. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    The times they "spend time on them" it's very obvious, because you end up with (gasp)

    Because they knew they were ditching/reworking Merovingia.


    You claimed that Tankhunters aren't "creative".

    It's a paint by numbers knockoff of the Blackjack.


    Do you really think Flamethrowers are high tech?
    Frontoviks have a MSV profile btw. Same as Marauders. Right now the only 'unit' with MSVs is the Mavericks for whatever ridiculous reason.

    Then don't blather on about USARF being a high tech faction.
     
  7. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    This we can agree.
    Things change. It could easily be they were planning to keep USARF as the high-techy one but for whatever reason decided to change tack. Or simply planned to make TAK have everything, while keeping USARF limited. It's not the only sectorial or even faction they kept limited after all.
    They're not. They're just straight good. There is a difference.
    I've heard this said, I never understood how or why is this even remotely reasonable to say, much less true. They share the same baseline, sure. Blackjacks are stripped down and given weaponry to bully. Ratnik are given skills and weaponry to be tricky, which doesn't work.
    They are for Ariadna :D
    They got the WarDrivers :-P

    Anyway, I don't appreciate your language.
     
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  8. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    #PanoWhineTrain #NonTunguskaNomadWhineTrain #USARFWhineTrain Choo choo!
     
  9. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Carlos did say "See, Pano. We hate you!"

    Its all on purpose. CB drinks our tears. Negative emotion fuels them. FEAR CB!

    *disclaimer: This is a joke.
     
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  10. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Generally speaking the problem with Order Sergeants and the problem with Zhanshi is the same overall problem. Both units are paying points for CC despite being terrible in CC and those points just being totally unjustified in terms of their value on the table.

    It's pretty easy to see where the cost of an Order Sergeant comes from if you do a side-by-side with other Combi Rifle armed basic LI like the Alguacile, Fusilier and Zhanshi. What we are seeing with the Securitate is the new points formula, which is being applied to new units but not (at the moment) older ones.

    Now, the big question will be answered in November. Either CB are going to update all the units to the same formula across the whole game (in which case there are going to be A LOT of small changes to all kinds of different units) or they aren't.

    But I'm not sure that the new formula, for all that it costs things like a Combi+Light Shotgun much better, actually does anything to fix the "CC tax" issue. So no matter what the answer to that big question is, Order Sergeants and Zhanshi may still look pretty shitty compared to anything... but especially compared to Securitate.
    .
     
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  11. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    It's easy, make CC upgrade free until like CC17. Fluff all the way up until that, then start paying points.
     
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  12. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    According to the lore most high-tech sectorial supposed top be Merovingia since it is the biggest spaceport that majority of trade happens and they're suppose to have the best relationships with 0-12 nations. I don't really think they have reflected that in the armament but that was definitely what lore said. Merovingia has MSV1 on Bricards and... well.. Anaconda I guess? And there is that.

    They also have 3 camo units, but of them is some shitty inferior inflitration metro-shenanigans that are hardly ever used, one is AVA 1 character and chasseurs. Hardly a comparision to marker wave that TAK can bring(which kinda even makes sense since Stavka is supposed to be biggest Intelligence Unit on the planet). Or even USARF. There is also no evidence that CB wanted to ditch merovinga from the very beginning - that's just 20/20 hindsight.

    I don't know from where arguments of this kanluwen guy even comes from but they're weak.
     
    #32 Niebieskooki, Aug 27, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  13. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    Then that's stupid and they shouldn't be talking about a certain Sectorial being a thing.
    Except, again, you're ignoring the fact that Tankhunters are getting new profiles added in and a new character.

    You're aware that them being "just straight good" doesn't preclude the creativity right?
    Concept is the same, the model looks incredibly similar, and quite frankly the loadouts on the Ratnik feel like they were split out of the Blackjack.
    Chasseurs would beg to differ.
    So does Merovingia, TAK, and Scots.

    What's your point?
    I don't appreciate people behaving as though they have some deeper insight to the game than people who have been through just as many editions as they have.
     
  14. Riquende

    Riquende Well-Known Member

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    OR, cost CC however you like, but then use the unit's MA level as a multiplier.
     
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  15. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Why not? They were going in one direction. Decided to change it. Deal with it.
    a) They got ONE profile added in
    b) don't see how that changes anything - you know what could've made that profile fun? If they added it also Traktor Mul Control Device. Or Mines and Minelayer. But they just slapped CoC on it, don't see what is fun about that. Just useful.
    c) Character is a separate unit as far as I'm concerned, and should be treated as such. Doesn't seem to share too much with Tankhunters anyway, beside being Camo MI.
    It doesn't preclude, but in Tankhunters case, there isn't much creativity in sight, merely good combination of skills.
    Concept and models are similar on purpose, they've been clear they are sharing baselines to show forces reusing basic builds. And yes, it makes sense for USARF and TAK too. They shared the basic research, but then put stuff on it and finished it out as each liked.
    Why? They can has it.
    You said camo was MRRF and not TAK "thing". I said, camo was TAK "thing" since I joined, that is, end of N2, expecting that you were in the game longer, not equal/shorter, and that CB said at some point earlier that MRRF should be camo sectorial. Not everyone writes as insultingly as you - some of us expect other people to know more than we do, at least sometimes :)
     
    #35 Nemo No Name, Aug 27, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
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  16. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    Okay, what the heck does "going the Merovingian way" even mean? MRRF is OOP, but the faction is still very much in the game. Do you think they'll stop casting Acon models? They're not deleting it; they're not getting rid of it.
    1. Acon just got a new starter, which includes 3 modern Akali sculpts,
    2. a Bagh Mari Box,
    3. Kirpal and Rho are both pretty damn good sculpts that hold well against the new stuff.
    4. N3 gave us Teucer, Scylla and Drakios
    5. Isnt' there a new Naga sculpt?
    6. They just added Dart
    7. ORCs are possibly going to get some modification with Varuna
    Seriously, I don't get it. Acon is a superb sectorial with a lot going on - and contrary to popular belief, you do not need the Aleph borrows to do well with the Shock Army.

    If I had to toss around conjecture: Acon blowing up means there is possibly a Campaign happening there as part of the continued CA invasion, or another online community campaign and/or the story progression as part of the coming ITS season. As a STREEEEETCH, there could be a 2 player box involving Acon and IA, but I suspect Varuna vs. IA, if there's going to be another 2 player box.

    Seriously, CB, if you sell Varuna vs. Invincibles, it will be the first starter box i don't split. I'm stating YJ if I get to take meat-chunk HI-everything.

    I've been of this opinion for a loooong time. Even CC20 should be dirt cheap.

    Re the thread:

    This comparison doesn't seem very useful. O.S. aren't so bad. They'd be better if the Hacker and a knight could join the link. FK+OS, plz. FK+OS Duo, too. Oh mans. that'd be pretty swell. Also, I absolutely would rather have an HRL than a Feuerbach. The template is way more useful than AP+DA. They're both amazing guns, but considering cost and versatility: HRL, every time.
     
  17. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Exactly, thanks! The problem with CC is that, unlike BS, small upgrades like CC+2 are not doing much at all, since:
    - everybody has burst 1 and CC 13 vs CC 15 doesn't mean that you are way more likely to win FtF
    - actual melee specialists will shrug CC 15 off as easily as they do CC 13
    - OS carry puny knives/pistols and have no means for delivering themselves into CC reliably, even if you'd want to
    - CC is an order waste in general compared to just shooting things

    There are still useful CC skills like Martial Arts, but mostly (for MO) because they grant Stealth and Courage, which are constantly used by knights trying to find their way around hackers and to think on their feet in terms of hiding in cover or standing their ground. Unfortunately, for OS MA doesn't make as much sense.

    Sure, but it won't really make that much difference (while people will probably still whine about difference in CC without any difference in cost, for God's sake). What's point of doing fluffy stuff like "OS know how to handle a close combat" if it's not gonna be true be their CC 13 or 17? They should either make it work somehow, or just don't bother, since it really, really doesn't change anything.


    Ok, I can agree that HRL vs Feuerbach is not that clear competition, albeit I am more of a fan of the latter rather than former (especially because Feuerbach costs just 1 SWC while HRL is worth 1.5, which is too expensive for LI defensive link, in my opinion). However, the link composition for Securitates is much better, as they take Grenzers, Perseus, whoever else to shine in their link.

    I am not saying that OS are bad, but they are paying for useless stuff while Securitate gets all the needed things (perhaps, somebody doesn't like Veteran L1 on those guys, but as soon as you start going aggressively with Lt, you'd certainly appreciate having few guaranteed regular orders in the midst of the chaos).

    And the saddest part is that Fusiliers are doing better in MO than regular non-specialist OS, because they do EXACTLY the same thing for 3 less points. You just do not want to pay 3 points for +1 WIP and +2 CC (and religious troop, but I'm not sure if it's worth any points at all) - and Fusiliers can shoot the same way OS do and have better weaponry for defensive link and linkable hacker (and Lt option). God, just thinking about how poorly OS perform compared to Fusiliers makes me sad!

    On the other hand, OS links with Knights could give them a lot of additional use - that would give a huge edge whatever knights are to join the link, too. Seems like an easy way to both some knights and OS without changing stats a lot - I hope CB will consider it :)

    Having Veteran on OS instead of useless CC upgrades could help a lot in MO, too.

    Heck, even improving their ARM/BTS (and surely OS look more protected than Fusiliers, don't they?) would do better than CC+2.

    Any other proposals on how to make OS work?
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    For what it's worth, Kazaks were the Camo-heavy part of Ariadna going back to the first book. I don't have the N1 book handy, but at the beginning of N2:

    MRRF
    No Camo as the Chasseurs and Bruant were added in Human Sphere.

    Caledonians
    AVA2 SAS + Uxia.

    USAriadna
    AVA2 Foxtrot

    Kazaks
    AVA3 Tankhunter + AVA4 Scouts + AVA1 Antipodes
     
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  19. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I don't think expensive scouts make for a camo based force.
     
  20. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. The HRL is sometimes 1SWC on some models, though. See: The god damn Muyibs lol

    Also, the Feuerbach is sometimes 1.5-2SWC as well. Hell, it's only 1.5 on the dang sogorat!

    Also, if you can leverage it, Religious isn't entirely useless: ignoring retreat is pretty damn useful when all you have left are a handful of Order Sergeants! Still: I really would like to see Knights join in with them. Taking the Core Slot with OS is hard to swallow - but then, there's lots of really good Knight Duo options. Duo Hospiptaller or Santiago is... very good. I lean toward the Santiagos due to the lower SWC and 360 visor (hello suppressive fire mode!).
     
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