Hey guys, Starting another "unit vs unit" thread here. Recently I have taken a look at the Securitate profile and was rather confused. Look: These guys have WIP 14 and BS 12, Fireteam: Core, are sporting Veteran L1 and can include MI armed to the teeth - Grenzers as part of their team, while the cheapest profile is just 13 pts. They also have Linkable Hacker and Paramedic, Lt option, Repeater guys, as well as usual HMG and MSR for long-range support. Feuerbach is there to cover the anti-TAG purpose. Now, let's check OS non-specialist profile: The base profile itself is very similar, also BS 12, ARM 1, BTS 0, PH 10 - all the same as for Securitate. The base cost for the cheapest OS is 13 pts too. What's different, though, is that OS has 15 CC (which is very flavoury, but nonetheless waste on a non-CC unit) and WIP 13 (which is good for Pano, but worse than Securitate = worse specialists and hackers) While OS trades HMG for more aggressive midrange Spitfire, instead of Feuerbach he has just an HRL, as well as lacks linkable hacker option. Instead of Veteran L1 they have Religious Troop, which is more of an impediment on LI or does not make much difference anyway. Fireteam: Core is there, but without any way to add anything but OS in the link. So, as we can see, Securitate is way better than regular non-specialist OS, while they cost the same amount of points, there are better loadouts and stats for Securitates than for humble Order Sergeants. The question is: why? Am I missing something? Or is there something wrong with CB and their pricing algorithm?
Available loadouts doesn't cost points. Or at least I really don't think so. For some reason +2 CC + religious troop equals +1WIP and Veteran L1. Which is really stupid. OS is swept away by power creep, it's mediocre on it's better days, and simply just suck on the rest. There are stupid decisions there, which likely never made any sense, like making anything spec sergeant that's not infiltrating. HRL is cool, HRL + auxbot is also cool, you can tell, that those are the new options. I don't see how linking MSV2 Spitfire on a BS12 LI would break the game, Hsien, Bao and Yaogat says hi. Same with hacker. Now hacking can be done in a link team, link team usually can do with a specialists, and we are still talking about the grossly overpriced regular HD. Not that you can't bring your fairy dust from fusilier or EVO hacker for cheaper. TL;DR: OS suck, welcome to Pano.
Ooh, Order Sergeants. I have opinions! It's always perplexed me that the two flavours of sergeant are mushed together under one profile. Is there anywhere else in the game that you find similar? To my mind, the linkable OS should be a single profile with a few basic loadouts and the specialists should be renamed (because 'Specialist' means something in the rules) and form a separate profile that has no reference to linking at all (although with the precedent set by Tunguska maybe you could allow some of them to drop into an OS link). Does anybody even run OS links? If you want say a cheap sniper overlooking the field you can use fusiliers for the job. I've never been too fussed by the hacker as I usually just want supportware so again, turn to the Fusilier.
Why do you even bother analysising a fireteam core other than Hospitaliers or Santiagos? Everyone knows those are the only options that make MO work. CRY MODE OFF Aside from that, I agree 100% with everything have been said here. It's a pitty because OS are a cool concept and have amazing miniatures (at least the new ones... Come on CB I want more new OS!!), and it opens the sectorial to the option of fitting a TAG, or Knights running solo or in duos (Haris would be amazing of course). Anyway, I have the hope that CB will review all "old sectorials" and give them as much diversity and fireteam options as with the new ones. Mostly we don't even need new troops. Just slight review of existing and more fireteams. Not that I'm saying balancing this is easy... But it should be done IMO.
Why do you even bother comparing Securitate to any other unit? Securitate are the best basic LI in the game at current. No matter how hard you try, cost won't make sense. Nomads are the predilect child of developers, that 's why. And regarding OS. They are not that bad as some people here say. Maybe you would prefer the Zanshi profile in your OS instead. :P
Scots Guard, Spetsnaz, Kurgat, and I'm sure there's going to be more down the line. This nonsense about Nomads being the child of developers is just that: nonsense. Securitate are powerful right now because they're one of the few 'primary' Sectorials being done in the NA2 vein of mixed links. Since CB doesn't ever backdate things it creates power creep.
Depends on what you define as "best". If by "best" you mean most cost efficient as in most efficient stats compared to cost, then the Fusilier wins hands down and no amount of bizzare PanO whining mentality is enough to twist that reality. If you mean "best" as in most capable and balanced unit in terms of shooting and pushing buttons, then the humble Ghulam is the best, with the star profile being FO with Rifle+Shotgun+Flash Pulse+Specialist which makes for an enormously flexible unit compared to its cost. The Securitate isn't cheap enough to be spammed nor does it have AVA to do such a thing in Vanilla. Their specialist profile is lackluster and quite expensive and 13 points minimum for an order monkey is hardly game breaking. They have in no way the same impact on Vanilla as the Kriza Borac/Task Master/Hollow Men had when they were introduced.
Units are costed fair. You cannot compare units cross-faction. CB is not cheating their own formula. CC skill is a valid statistic. CB cares about PanO. All animals are equal. (damn I miss Comic Sans ;/ )
Here's where one of the biggest issues comes into play: CB doesn't seem to know WTF to do with PanO. I don't know if it is from apathy, lack of a 'sponsor' on the design team, or a holdout from their RPG days where PanO was purportedly 'one of the bad guys' in some of their campaigns(which to be honest, you can kinda see on display with the storyline in "Outrage") but it seems like the main 'design' is "slap some techy words on it and give it the most expensive gear possible". The sad part is people don't seem to realize that it doesn't just apply to the OG Sectorials. We're even seeing it with USARF vs TAK.
Yeah, kinda, but it's not just PanO suffering. Nomads seem to be where all the most creative and interesting stuff is laid, and where stuff is most looked at in terms of integrating into both vanilla and sectorial. PanO just suffers more from CBs lack of care in comparison than most other factions. ?! Don't follow. USARF is pretty decent all round. Only unit I would not rate well with it is Minutemen and Devil Dogs, everything else is at least decent, and more like top notch.
Tunguska seems to be where it is, yes. Corregidor and Bakunin not so much. Compare CJC to StarCo as a great example. USARF suffered from the same issue as PanO: they're "decent" but the lack of creativity is disheartening. Compare Marauders to Frontoviks or Streloks. Compare Unknown Ranger to the new Tankhunter character. Hell, compare Tankhunters to basically anything in the USARF roster.
Whoa, thanks for all the feedback! I know, right? Specialist Order Sergeants are lovely - TOFO's one of the best specialist toolboxes Pano have, TOMSR is a really potent sniper, Auxbot+Combi/HRL are multipurpose G:Sync DZ guards / minesweepers. They are so good exactly because of their loadouts, but armanents of regular linkable OS are not so good, unfortunately. I have run OS link with Konstantinos a few times - it's fragile while it's supposed to be attacking, and paramedic does not hold up with the poor PH of 10 at all. My condolences, Zhanshi are really poor and probably need even more love than OS :P Securitate isn't the best, but they look like a worthy choice of veteran LI - which OS are also supposed to be. In case you need the most potent LI, you could check out frontoviks, but it's worth almost twice as much. Well, if we're looking at basically the same unit for two different sectorials... If you look at the comparison, it really goes down to - Why Veteran L1 and WIP+1 is equal to Religious Troop and CC+2? - Why Fireteam: Core (+ Grenzers) with HMG, MSR, Feuerbach is equal to Fireteam: Core with Spitfire, MSR, HRL? P.S. Ah, that was sarcasm... that figures... At least, if we point out this kind of obvious inequality, CB may start thinking about fixing stuff that doesn't work rather than constantly releasing new sectorials. Maaaay be?
As the player who play both Pano and Tuguska, OS are crap but Securitates(in Tunguska) don't need Veteran1 at that makes them pricey. Most of time your Lt is interventor, who is in the best hidden place in DZ. MO on the other hand could really benefit from Veteran, but that is unlikely to happen
I'm sorry, but Bakunin with Riot Grrls, Pupniks & Morlocks, Sin Eaters? Admittedly, most profiles could do with a makeover into newer format, sure, but it's still a wellspring of interesting and fun profiles (that can also do work). Even Corregidor has Geckos, which may not be the best thing ever but are so easily added into a list. Iguana, Senor Massacre, and let's not forget Intruders. -.- Admittedly, it suffers most from age among Nomad sectorials, and Mobile Brigadas aren't worth the lead in them, but it's still awesome, filled with fun profiles. And StarCo is Nomad 4th sectorial, a newer version of Corregidor in a way. It's also a great example just how much Nomads are loved. I don't know, honestly, Marauders rate quite highly. Dogged is nice in Ariadna, they get MSV1s on units that want to use them but don't pay on others... Not sure what do you complain about them? Streloks don't have a direct comparison; closest I would say is Hardcase and/or Devil Dogs. Thing with Tankhunters isn't creativity, it's the camo in general that is so overpowered - especially if you can spam it the way vanilla Arianda (or TAK) will be able to. And the overall vision for Ariadna they have; USARF has to follow modern US with it's "high tech bully" approach to warfare, while TAK has to follow Russian stereotype of "camouflage the whole tank division comrade". However, many of the "high tech gadgets" are either overpriced or of limited use, while many of the "skills" or more "antiquated" pieces of equipment are underpriced. I mean, consider also the debate Ratnik vs Blackjack.
