1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Do mines attack?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Recruit-3D, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Recruit-3D

    Recruit-3D Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    32
    From the wiki it is obvious, that the skill to place mines is an attack. But what about the moment the mine triggers. I could not find a statement that the mine "attacks" the trooper, after it triggers the mine.

    Do you guys have an answer to that question?
    Do triggered mines "attack" the enemy trooper or just cause damage?

    Source please :)

    Edit: Similar situation with Perimeter Weapons. Boost ist obligatory, but is it an attack?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Sounds like you're asking a different question.

    You want to be provided a source on that something is not written in the book - you do realize that this is impossible, right?
     
    ijw likes this.
  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    Mines 'attack' in that they fire a Direct Template Weapon, but as Mahtamori says I can't see anything where it would make a difference.
     
    Lothair and chromedog like this.
  4. Whyrocknodie

    Whyrocknodie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    101
    The only reason it would matter I can think of is that the mine is inside a zero-visibility cloud of smoke. A trooper walks into range of it with the first short skill to set it off, and attacks it back with a chain rifle or something through the smoke, placing the template to clip some enemy troopers. I doubt that's an intended effect of the mine detonating, though.
     
  5. Recruit-3D

    Recruit-3D Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    32
    I was researching ways to overcome SymbioMates and the passage in the wiki states that the need to " receive a successful Attack ". So If you want to attack with a Weapon (LFT e.g.) you have to make a BS - Attack, which actively involes the trooper to to something. Mines however only seem to have the Attack Label trait on the skill to place them.

    @Mahtamori Hence the following question about the Parameter Weapon because Boost doesn´t seem to have an attack label either. If you want i can make a seperate post from them.

    Is my question properly unterstood? It´s only about the Attack Label of the independently reacting Item.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    @Recruit-3D : it's not that I don't understand your question, it is that you were obviously not interested in getting answers to those questions for their own sake but were digging for ammo to use for a different question - hence the request that you ask that question directly instead.

    Keep in mind that the rules have two concepts of attack (informally speaking) - declaring and being subject to.
    For instance, a camo token may not be targeted by an attack while it may still be subjected to attacks. Should mines triggering specifically be an attack you would have increased confusion and contradiction between mines triggering by activated camo tokens and mines targeting a camo token that may never be targeted by attacks.

    As such; no neither Boost nor mines triggering are attacks, but they result in attacks on the subject as far as other stuff like Symbiomates are concerned.

    Edit: bonus spelling errors brought to you by Hacker's Keyboard (Android app), the only keyboard that doesn't request full internet access. It's pretty terrible to type on in general :/
     
  7. zavros

    zavros Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    58
    There's language that infers that the weapon/equipment is making an attack.
    There's this section in Damage.

    The description of the type of Attack, Ammunition, Special Skill, Equipment, Hacking Program, etc. indicates whether a successful Attack with it forces the target to make an ARM Roll or BTS Roll.

    They both force damage rolls which probably makes it an attack.

    A mine's direct template follows all the rules for direct template which references it as an attack, which is then modified by it being performed by a Deployable Weapon.

    • Dodging an Attack with a Template Weapon usually involves passing a PH Roll.
    • However, that Roll becomes a PH-3 Roll in these cases:
      • If the trooper affected by the Template Weapon does not have LoF to the attacker.
      • If the Template Weapon is a Deployable Weapon (such as a Mine or an E/Mauler).
    We can definitely say a mine's 'trigger' is a type of attack at least, all of the template rules infer that your making an attack with the template and it does reference deployable equipment.

    • Once Boost is declared the Perimeter Item always reaches the target, ending its movement and detonating in base to base or Silhouette Template contact.
    Despite boost not being attack, I think the attack happens when it detonates by touching the target. It is taken off the board and forces an arm roll.

    From ARM Roll:
    To make an ARM Roll, roll a d20, add the value of the ARM Attribute of the target and compare the result to the Damage value of the Attack.

    The arm roll thinks its an attack that is causing the roll.

    Trigger and Detonate aren't exactly defined by a block of rules, but all of the surrounding rules and language assumes it is making an attack.

    SymbioMates are probably intended to work against mines and koalas. It might seem broken but I think it would be great if an opponent pops a symbiomate on a mine rather than the three hits I got with my Hmg. If they are managing to pop both of your koalas with one symbiomate use, try spreading them out front and back near the edge of your ZoC.
     
  8. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    1,292
    I think we can address OP's question very specifically by looking at a more general concern: Only Order declarations can trigger AROs. You can't ARO against a mine triggering and blowing up in your face, because it is not activated by an Order (nor can it be, since it is equipment, not a trooper).

    Edit: Whoops, I mixed up posters. OP was actually talking about Symbio-dudes. Carry on.
     
  9. Recruit-3D

    Recruit-3D Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    32
    Thank you Zavros, this was the definition i could not find.

    Summary: Every Situation that forces the target to perform an ATM/BTS roll is an attack.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    On a related note, does fall damage (and other potentially self-inflicted damage) count as an attack? What about environmental damage?

    Here's the kicker (i.e. the ultimate dumb question); if fall damage qualifies as an attack, does that mean [a model with Super-jump] can dodge to avoid it or is that stopped by not having LOF to the attacker?
     
    #10 Mahtamori, Jan 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Symbiomates against Biotecvore! XD

    I don't understand your second question... How would a miniature inflict falling damage that a Super-Jump one could dodge? If it comes from some sort of charge attack, you would dodge (or CC Attack, or shoot) at the enemy model and, if successful, you wouldn't suffer any displacement, so you don't dodge that.
    As for destructible terrain (parking a tag on top of an antenna, for example), I think you don't retire terrain for the table ever, placing instead a destroyed marker by its side, so the "floor" doesn't collapse under the TAG :S
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Dodge can Face to Face to avoid an attack. If Falling Damage by virtue of causing an ARM counts as an attack, then Dodge would be able to avoid same as if shot by a Flamethrower (Super-Jump needed since there's no other way of falling and being able to declare Dodge in the same order) - I do note that Dodge requires you to see the attacker, though, so there's that. I didn't say it was a smart question :blush:
     
  13. Recruit-3D

    Recruit-3D Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    32
    well, you see the ground attacking you by using a gravity attack.
     
    T. Rex Pushups likes this.
  14. Bert

    Bert Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    5
    I love the smell of rules lawyering in the morning!
     
    Todd likes this.
  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    So your idea is to jump up 15 cm, from more than 30cm or so of height, and then declaring a dodge as the second short order? I'd say that the logical thing to do is to jump downwards 12-13cm and ignore all damage, then dodge against the incoming fire you might take :S

    I'm just unable to imagine a situation where you need to dodge the ground, frankly :S

    Gravity was, in fact, the last boss in Skyrim... on Fallout 4 it was defeated by the jumppack mods, though (hint: stealth + jump pack = ridiculously easy mode for the game)
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    One of my friends has this very tall construction crane (ever played Battlefield 3 on the desert map by the coast?). It's tall enough to give even a Rodok Missile Launcher a DAM20+ falling damage hit, so dodging that damage could theoretically come in handy.

    (We've house-ruled that as a no-go zone since snipers ended up being way too dominant in games where they were allowed up there)
     
    xagroth likes this.
  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    To avoid enemy Attacks, and (*via the template rules), to avoid template weapons. Falling damage wouldn't fit either of those.
     
    colbrook likes this.
  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    That kind of buildings do come in hand if you are also raising a lot of the map aswell, however that has little practical use for a 3 turns game, since most orders would be spent going from a terrace to the elevator, down the street, another building up... Not to mention that using the innards of those buildings becomes really tiresome fast.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation