SMGs are very good, but I think that most profiles with a SMG are basically fine. And it's worth pointing out that on the active turn, a combi is much more useful because of that range. 4pts more useful? Arguable, but still, a combi is preferable in lots of situations i.e. when the enemy is 8+" away. If you're going to put them in suppression the SMG is straight better, sure. I think if I had to make changes, I'd take away shock and leave AP always on and reduce the DAM to 12, to represent that most of its power comes from penetration capability and it's firing a smaller round than a rifle, but against ARM 2 or better targets you get the same effect within a certain range. But I dunno if it'd be worth the cost then. The only troops out there with SMGs tend to be light troops. I am never so bothered by such things. SMGs create efficient profiles but then eh, many things create efficient profiles, as long as the game works, nbd. If swarms of SMG troops are crawling all over they'll be a problem, sure. And I know everyone says "but you'd take a SMG over a combi for -4pts on most troops!" and maybe, but you can't, so it's not really an issue. Deal with the profiles as a whole, and as part of wider armies/factions/the entire game, and I don't see an issue. If you said to me "make a list of the top ten problems in Infinity" then I don't think SMGs would even make the list.
And also I would say that appeals to real world ballistics are going to get you nowhere and, well, they shouldn't. It's a game. It should mechanically work, be flavoursome and fun, and if it has the aesthetic of "realism" then sure, but it's not going to be realistic in a game where the effective combat range of a battle rifle is about 30-35 yards and civilians bounce rifle rounds 35% of the time.
SMGs cost 4-5 points less than a combi, work much better at 24" or less, have a better suppression state, and largely only suffer at ranges where combis turn in to overly risky plays for anything not rocking an X-Visor. Combis are paying 4-5 points extra for worse performance in their ideal ranges and some marginal utility at further ranges (where most combis don't want to tussle with anything unless they're basically getting assured of no return fire). Either SMGs are too damn cheap, or rifle-ranged weapons are paying too much for getting to work beyond 24". The latter seems likely considering how CB similarly undervalues template weapons to an extreme degree. In general, I can't think of a single unit where replacing their combi with an SMG wouldn't be an automatic improvement. That I can basically just go through a list of overcosted units in my army and muse to myself how an SMG profile would automatically make them worthwhile should tell one that this thing is generally too good to be true. I say it needs to be DAM12 (because seriously, for using a d20, Infinity is way to timid with its weapon stats; having basically everything clustered between 13-15 damage is just terrible utilization of the range they have available) and it needs to lose the special ammo types. It can keep its super low cost at that point because it is still a decent high-burst CQB weapon that can suppress, but it no longer runs circles around the combi for a massive slash in price. Then if CB want to spice things up they can make Shock and AP SMGs for special occasions. But letting the things hit harder than combat rifles is just beyond the pale. The current SMG feels not just over-designed (because it totally needs special ammo types guys!), but like it was specifically made as some kind of discount powerhouse weapon. It crops up when CB wants something hard-hitting and super efficient on points. It is Frenzy in gun form and thus offensive to my sense of balance.
Funny, considering in fluff terms a chain rifle is literally just an SMG with such high burst that it indiscriminately hits everyone in the field of fire.
But it’s not “individual rounds spray-and-pray” it’s “shredding a chain and launching the shrapnel spray-and-pray”, like canister.
@Section9 thanks for running the math - I knew the disparity between the two rounds was bad but had forgotten just how bad it is. Basically, if it needs to be shot, you should shoot it with a rifle, not a glorified pistol cartridge. Or maybe even more ideally with a heavy machine gun for a good 6-8 second burst. SMG at dam 12 feels about right. Special ammo types should probably be reserved for costlier guns - AP SMG could represent the Infinity take on a P90 where the catridge actually works, maybe, and would see a points raise. I will say, though, in the active turn, +3 BS from Combi at 8-16" makes me want to have combis around still. The part that bothers me is the insane cost difference + SMG being better against harder targets, which makes no sense once you have a basic grasp of ballistics.
Effectively, though, this is easier to do than you might think. Section 9's post does a great job of explaining basic ballistics. Without getting into minute differences, the general effects of assault rifle-caliber rounds, within standard engagement range, are effectively similar regardless of whether you're shooting 7.62x39, 5.45x39, or 5.56x45. They're all decent rounds at close range and quickly lose power at long range. This translates pretty well to the combi's range bands. They're also all fairly controllable in rapid fire - this translates well to Burst. The damage scale might be harder to explain, but once you peg a basic value (standard shoulder fired rifle = dam 13), then the rest of the values make sense more or less as presented (assault pistol should also be dam 11, it would fire the same rounds as a standard pistol, but so be it). Remarkably, for not having a gun culture, CB has done a great job of intelligently translating common firearms to the gaming table. That, however, makes their rules for the SMG as it currently exists all the more jarring.
no one complained about the SMG when the airborne ranger was practically the only thing that got it I say go for it – theres all these beautiful weapon profiles in the game that are underrepresented, lets use them!
No, in fluff terms a chain rifle is a freaking vacuum cleaner running in reverse. Yes, really. Damn new computer, I don't have that bit of fluff from the old forums on it anymore. But it was a lament of some PanO marketing type, talking about how the first discovery was an 'oops' caused by someone repairing the vacuum and wiring the motor in backwards. Then it became fashionable to "express your displeasure" with someone using one. How using items of sentimental value was for a cheating lover, but using actual trash was reserved for someone you considered less than human. This guy was the one making the new, macho styling to appeal to teenage males. For a vacuum cleaner. And it's not like you could ban a vacuum...
It's not a problem with JSA, it's about relation between weapon cost/usefulness. And I don't see the reason, why SMG should use different ammo types for less costs.
In you active turn, you have usually the control over the range. So yes, it's an drawback, but not so big as you say. It's all about the table layout.
Well, when it becomes more deadly to hit Jotum, most armored thing in Infinity with pea sized round, than with Rocket launcher( this weapon can be also used against light and medium vehicles) Sniper HMG (the range, destructive power and high rate of fire of the HMG makes it a force to be reckoned with on any battlefield.) Mk12(The name of this weapon is due to its ammunition, which has an appearance and effect very similar to the famous Holland-12 Grand Safari, used in big game hunting to bag great prizes such as elephants or rhinos) you know you are doing it right :D SMG(The advances in personal ballistic protection and the appearance of the Combi Rifle eclipsed the submachine gun as the main military and police short-ranged weapon with light ammunition. While long considered obsolete, progress in stopping power for new light ammunitions in recent times have favored a rebirth of this kind of weapon. The characteristics of its light caliber facilitates a high rate of fire and concentration of hits, causing higher hydrostatic shock to the target than that of larger bore calibers. Its enhanced firepower and special qualities for close quarter battle make the submachine gun a much appreciated weapon by tactical police units, anti-terrorist, and special operations teams, as well as paramilitary groups.) Poor machines, caring more about hydrostatic shock than living targets,lol Okay, weapon fluff should not be taken really serious, but it's kinda funny when you think about it and how some things translate into game rules.
I'm not sure about what other people think or thought about Ryuken-9 and the JSA remake, but around here and from what I gathered on the forums there were three things that happened to JSA. 1. Ryuken-9 is a new awesome SMG skirmisher! 2. Domaru has two swords! 3. I guess the other Ryuken-9 is the Raiden now, but screw that guy because I can max out the SMG profile! Almost to the point where JSA should be renamed RSA - Ryuken SMG Army. That said, didn't SMGs get AP ammo because they were perceived as being ineffective for use inside Steel Phalanx?
I think people are on different wavelengths so let me clarify what the real difference in opinion seems to be from what I can tell. In Infinity everything has a fixed point cost. One side wants that point cost to reflect the difference in strength for the SMG. The other side says it works fine in practice because of unit design.
