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Why should I take Seraph over Bulleteer?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Firellon, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    *tear* "I'll be back for you little buddy" ... "beep boop" ... "I love you too." *hops off singing 'You are the wind beneath my wings'*
     
  2. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    One thing you have to keep in mind with Infinity is that the answer to the question of "why use X unit as opposed to Y unit" changes with context pretty drastically. Each mission can reward or punish units differently.

    Everything Barakiel said is 100% true but is that better then what you can get with those same points and additional orders doing something else? The answer is a nonhelpful "sometimes" lol.

    If you want a strong attacker for an active turn push then the bulleteer is on of your best units and is probably going to see more play then a Seraph overall.
    However I could see a Seraph giving me real problems on missions that reward holding ground. It is a real offensive threat and a pain to try and remove if it digs in. It prays on people out of position or not expecting it, and can push in to punish that mistake much harder then a bulleteer.

    That unexpectedness can be a big weapon, for example I watched a guy take second turn and so had to deploy first. He was playing Steel Phalanx and had two 4 man teams all clustered at one corner, I am not sure what the guy was thinking but when his opponents reserve Squalos hit the table his face dropped. The first spec fire put something ridicules like 5 troops under a template and the game was pretty much over before that guy had his first turn.
     
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  3. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    Sounds like someone learned a valuable lesson.
     
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  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Please let this be a meme post and not real.

    I would throw out that the Seraph also has a 6 inch super jump (a huge advantage over the bulleteer) and carries around a last resort specialist.
     
  5. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    the seraph is a discovery, camo hunter that excels at killing troops that thought they were safe on rooves or inside buildings.

    The bulleteer is a gunfighter.

    Done

    but realistically theres a massive ammount that a TAG gives you access too that a bulleteer does not, so much its honestly hard to restrict a conversation on just how different the two units are.

    Ultimately if you are trying to compare the two units, and you think they compete for the same role I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the game.
     
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  6. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Hey, now I can strongly disagree.

    Both Seraph and Bulleteer are active turn killers with some capacity to be a roadblock in reactive turn after being able to get into midfield suppressive fire (and that's important, they are bad in ARO as long as they are not there)
    Yes, Seraph adds some camo-hunting ability thanks to Auxbot (which can be bought way cheaper with Peacemaker or Spec OS with Auxbot)
    Yes, Seraph can fight in CC - but realistically, it will probably suck anyway when facing real CC specialists (like Saito Togan, for example) - and his CC skills are more of a deterrent than a threat, as it is with almost all knights as well.
    Yes, Seraph allows to do SuperJump shenanigans - and that's something unique and potentially very powerful. Never tried that before, so asking here how much is it worth statistically, how often do you people use it.

    But still, sometimes jumping could be to a disadvantage more than just shooting down people in a straightforward gunfight on -9 for them (ODD+Cover). It's common to see snipers or ML Swiss / Noctifiers around that are just waiting for your TAG to expose itself to DA / EXP (and that's still easy to be seen by multiple AROs at once since he's so big.

    So, the question is if it's worth it to take Seraph as a multitool for completing all those tasks specified before, compared to other options we have in MO. Is it worth it to risk 82 points to be lost to unexpected ARO or shitty E/M warband while getting really good sturdy unit with multiple ways of approaching the enemy and killing hard-to-reach models.
     
  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    sigh, :( Ok lets try

    Look heres the thing. The Seraph and the Bulleteer dont compete, you're look at the gun and thinking its the only defining feature of the unit and thus the determinant of its entire role.

    But the Seraph is so much more than its spitfire (which is damn good as a BS15 DAM15 Spitfire that can jump on an ARM7 STR3 platform...)

    Its Scoring, with a Pilot that is able to get out behind the TAG without proc'ing AROs (The S7 TAG blocks LOF while the Rem Pilot is pushing Objectives)
    The Seraph Packs 4 chances to force the opposition camo tokens to reveal, with Discover+Shoot being an option twice due to the Auxbot and the Seraph, and both the Seraph and the Auxbot both having DTWs allows for a further 2 intuitive attacks.
    The Seraph is far more resilient than the bulleteer (beng STR3 Rem Pres ARM7 as opposed to the Bulleteers STR1 Rem Pres) and does not require the Same level of support that the bulleteer does to fight at a good BS (Being BS15 natively to the bulleteers BS12)
    The Seraph is also considerably faster than a bulleteer due to its S7 allowing it to vault most terrain and its Super jump letting it traverse what it cannot vault.

    But all this is really rather irrelevant, you are afterall comparing a light attack piece in the bulleteer with a Top Teir assault piece in the Seraph, its apples and oranges on a massive scale. Ultimately your points read like you just do not understand how to leverage the advantages a TAG offers you over light attack pieces, which ok maybe you dont, but thats not the TAGs fault.
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It comes up often enough with my Samaritan that I feel like an asshole for doing it. You can frequently be spitfiting people in the back or force them to change face vs. you instead of retaliate.
     
  9. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    How does that look in reality? You say "this dude jumps 2", let's see if I can shoot you in the back without you seeing me?"? Or just put your finger above it in the air, check if you can see the other troop's back, and say you jump that high, let's see if it's in jump range?
     
  10. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    "I jump to the height required for CBs currently broken rules to allow me to shoot you while letting you have no reaction. Deal with it. Also, this is as legal as slicing the pie, don't waste our time making me find the point for you, given that LoS is open information" *8-bit meme sunglasses descend onto face*

    Something like that :P
     
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  11. injenegr

    injenegr Well-Known Member

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    So what's broken in jump rules?
     
  12. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    In summary, the fact that you can jump high enough to shoot someone who is facing you directyl in such a manner that you are shooting their back arc, thus effectively killing their ability to ARO.

    Shooting someone in the back from in front of them sounds fun, no? :P
     
  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    they can however somewaht fix it by angling their sillouette,

    It stops the jump and the lateral slide. the slide it stops by changing the anlge, the jump it stops by pushing the point they can draw LOF from backwards on their volume relative to you
     
  14. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    You still need them to be behind walls, right? So they don't have to draw LoF from the point you've shot at, but from anywhere between the Ss.
     
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  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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  16. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you need them behind a wall. then again this is a common thing in infinity, I think we can agree
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    So this ca't he performed on someone whose facing exactly perpendiculqr to the line between the attacker and defender. But since people with super jump can jump laterally as well it's no protection.
     
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  18. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Hey, don't you think you could seriously abuse this?

    Speaking from math perspective, as long as enemy's lower than the wall and you are behind it, you can always find the zone where you can only see his back arc, no matter how far from the wall the enemy is:
    SeraphShenanigans.png

    The green zone, basically, where you can shoot at the enemy while super jumping without getting any ARO
    And as long as he's facing towards you, his closest point from which he's able to see will `see` less than his back, therefore making possible free SuperJump shot.

    Do you guys think it's legal?
    Since it definitely makes super jump really, really powerful
     
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  19. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    You are suppose to be only able to draw LoF to a 3x3mm area of the silhouette. From the Wiki:
    • The troop must be able to see, at least, a part of the volume of its target with the size of the target's head, or a minimum size of approximately 3x3mm (the size of the black squares on the Silhouette Templates).
    This means that it's possible, but it's probably going to be less likely on smaller silhouettes.
     
  20. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Ok, but it goes both ways, right?
    That would mean that you could just jump a little bit higher, so you could see 3x3 mm area of the enemy while he's still able to see less of you.
    As far as I can tell, with super jump you're always able to see more of enemy than he's able to see of you...
     
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