I've been playing MO for a bit now and it seems to me that the hurdle is generally 'how do I get out of my DZ?' and once I get over that hump things tend to go ok. So I'm looking for your tips and tricks for how you do it in case I'm missing anything. A cursory glance at the sectorial shows a plethora of weapons that chew things up in the 0-24" range band but that 24-48" band has way fewer options. Without smoke the only way I know how to get out of my DZ is to shoot my way out. However, the only way I've found to reliably do that is to either a) use the hospitaller HMG or b) TO MSR. While the TO MSR does really well vs TR bots and other solo AROs, things like 5-man line infantry links with a missile launcher or sniper rifle are pretty common around here and they tend to kill the TO MSR as often as not. The hospitaller HMG tends to win that F2F and is therefore my go-to. However as I've tried to branch out with my list building and use other toys the problem I keep running into is: how do I deal with that linked ML without a hospitaller HMG? The crusader HMG or Spitfire seem like an interesting option, but not one I've tried. Would like to hear how people fare with them. A coordinated attack where one of your pieces is probably going to die seems like it'd work too, but what do you use? Magister knights come to mind and might be worth trading a knight for some unopposed panzerfausts. The KoTHS spitfire also seems like an option on paper? Could use the holo-echos to get up into range, just gotta be careful not to get caught by the ML template. Sheer target saturation might work? Just take so many spitfires that hopefully the enemy ARO can't cover them all, then push up with whatever isn't pinned down. Anyway, just wanted to get people's thoughts on how they tackle this particular problem. Especially outside of the hospitaller HMG.
There are none. Thats the whole point of MO. Someone forgot that a lot of game is being played outside Spitfire range. TO MSR and Hosp HMG are only workable options. KotHS will be bad against links or ML. Just take Hospitaller Link and pray your opponent wont bring 10 CAMO markers and ML Tankhunter ^^ (shit it will be so miserable to play MO against TAK)
Yeah, you've identified the play phenomenon that makes MO very reliant on the Hospitaller link. Having the Hospitaller HMG as the only showcase high-Burst long range option means a lot of players have to include it in their lists. Options like the Fusilier HMG or Sierra are there, but have their own limitations as well. Even backup options like Magister Panzerfausts or missiles tend to still favor the Hospitaller link. On a broader note, you can probably try to arrange tables so that some sections are dense enough for you to advance without needing to rely on Smoke grenades, HMG, etc. That's generally a good practice to get into, to help make tables more fair. And if you think it's kind of pathetic that "arrange the tables better" is a key tactic for helping a Sectorial function, you're not alone... I think it's pathetic too.
Here are all the options in descending Order of difficulty to pull off: Linked Hospitaler HMG Works against pretty much everything even in -3 Range. Crusader Spitfire Can underrange Sniper MLs or Snipers, but one lucky hit and the lights go out, ARM3 helps a bit but not much. So you're going to need a second option to fall back on. TO MSR OS Has trouble beating Linked ARO pieces reliably, especially stuff like a Brawler MSV2 Sniper or Grenzer ARO options. 1W ARM1, requires at least a second option to fall back on. MMS L2 Bulleteer There is usually a place on the table where you can deploy a Bulleteer so he can leave cover and enter +3 Range vs AROs. The ODD with B4 and effectiver BS15 base helps to make the usual low B AROs outright miss so you can risk shooting at -3 Range or without MMSL2. It's a REM though, so hide it well and look out for Hackers. Again bring a backup plan. Montesa Spitfire/LGL/LRL Forward Deployment is high risk/reward, but does a good job with proper execution. His weakness is the lack of Stealth as a midfield HI. Infiltrating Hackers/Repeaters are a giant problem he needs backup for. His point cost is hard to manage in MO, you might want to swap to Vanilla or SAA if you want to bring one of these. MSR Blackfriar Wouldn't touch with a stick but being a BS13 MSV2 has it's merits. It can remove those pesky Smoke chugging Warbands. Someone won an Interplanetario with it. If the terrain gives you an extra Mod or the ARO piece relies on Camo Mods he can be quite useful. Also Discover+Shoots on a 10 vs a Token in Cover to see if a Cateran is feeling lucky. MMS L2 Sierra same as the Bulleteer but desperately needs the MMS L2 buff, which is harder to get because unlike the Bulleteer it doesn't have a Repeater. You'll also want to use it for AROs so it is probably dead/needs to be revived if you go 2nd. More of a backup plan than a primary one. Linked Magister ML/Panzerfaust If there is something has to die in one hit or is hard to remove out for AROs they're usually worth risking. Setting up Coordinated Orders with them can be tricky though. TO FO OS Lacks punch but should be able to sneak into his +3 to give it a shot. Again more of a backup plan as you usually want to hold him back for later to be annoying with Mines and perform Specialist duty. KothS He probably can get past a lot of things, but Holo isn't the easiest thing to use. Common consensus on the guy is also that he isn't all that great.
What I don't get how is Frenzy a good thing? It gives some point discount (have no idea how much), but after it kills anything (from it's next active turn) looses a lot from it's survivability and becomes lot worse in shooting. Unless you stuff it in a link team, where it doesn't count (until the link breaks and everyone starts running around hitting stuff with their guns instead of shooting them).
Oh that's not so complicated with Links in the picture. First of all Frenzy triggers at the start of the next round. If the Frenzied troop doesn't see the next turn it doesn't matter. Secondly having a Link lets you turn Frenzy/Impetuous on/off. The rest is self explanatory. If you want the free Orders form Impetuous to shoot, gain ground or stab someone with the pointy end of a sword you can have it. If not you stay in the Link or reform it to prevent it.
Yeah, I'm aware of it, but frenzy/impetuous is only good on throwaway stuff imo, not 40pts knighst or your obvious inspiring leadership LT. So I think Frenzy is a big drawback. And there are no links in vanilla, so out of MO, we kinda have to live with it.
Thanks for the good replies. I hadn't considered the Montesa as a possible solution, obviously it works best if you go first but he could probably be protected by TOFOs etc if you had to go second. A spitfire peacemaker with MMLvl 2 could probably fill a similar niche for cheaper which I hadn't thought about. While the hospitaller HMG seems to be the most optimal choice, I'm really just looking for other solutions that are at least playable and these are all really good. While it's expensive and not super easy to pull off, I think coordinated orders have some potential to remove a really dangerous ARO. Even out of optimal range, unopposed shots of any kind are dangerous to most line infantry.
I don't touch MO, and only play SAA sometimes for my love of Montessa. But wondering, why no mention for Father knight ML? Apart form a [unlinked] ML in general being not the optimal active turn tool. He's not that much more expensive than a Montessa, cost no more SWC than a TO MSR OS, and does the threat of a template not count for something at least?
That at least those I've played on were very, very open and 3 of which had sniper towers covering 3/4 of table from DZ (so that a single MSR/ML/TR DRONE could block such percentwge of table, it wasnt "1 alley or 2").
That sounds miserable. Were a lot of tables contributed to the even or was all the scenery owned and set up by the TO?
I think as an ARO piece he's definitely got a place (never used it personally though). But in terms of trying to take out an opposing linked ML he's got pretty terrible odds. Only a 30% chance of taking out an opposing alguacile with a 39% chance of going straight to unconscious himself. I might do it if I was desperate but I'd probably throw in whatever else I could in a coordinated order.
Yeah, this pretty much sums it up--though I'm not sure I agree that "he's definitely got a place." 49 points/1.5 SWC is a lot to spend on an ARO piece that's outclassed by line infantry. And God help you if you encounter a ML in a full link of Fusiliers: Active Player 55.29% Fusiliers inflicts 1 or more wounds on Military Order Father-Knights (1 W) 34.00% Fusiliers inflicts 2 or more wounds on Military Order Father-Knights (Unconscious) 14.31% Fusiliers inflicts 3 or more wounds on Military Order Father-Knights (Dead) Failures 20.52% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 24.19% Military Order Father-Knights inflicts 1 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Unconscious) 18.73% Military Order Father-Knights inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead) Or worse, a fully linked Fusie HMG: Active Player 60.31% Fusiliers inflicts 1 or more wounds on Military Order Father-Knights (1 W) 24.10% Fusiliers inflicts 2 or more wounds on Military Order Father-Knights (Unconscious) 5.88% Fusiliers inflicts 3 or more wounds on Military Order Father-Knights (Dead) Failures 28.74% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 10.96% Military Order Father-Knights inflicts 1 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Unconscious) 8.71% Military Order Father-Knights inflicts 2 or more wounds on Fusiliers (Dead) (FYI, for these calculations I assumed both in cover, both in their neutral range bands) Our dear Fr. Knight also gets smoked by anything toting a big gun and camo, (e.g., an Intruder), especially if it's a surprise shot. Long story short, he's not an effective ARO piece unless your dealing with a pretty soft target.
I ran the numbers as well, and yeah, he doesn't fare well against any dedicated assault unit, even in his good ranges. I'd really prefer this one to get Feuerbach+SMG for some active turn hunting.
The ML FK is probably best used as bait for a TO MSR ambush. I've never tried it, but it'd probably work ok against most things. Though when I just ran the numbers vs a single Kirza HMG it wasn't pretty even when splitting his burst. Either way, he's probably not helping you get out of your DZ anytime soon.
I am somewhat surprised to see no mention of linked OS HRL. A B3 template attack that can touch the enemy DZ for 41pts isn't terrible when long range options are scarce. They won't stack up to elite units with BS mods but they are a threat.
I have no idea who settep up the tables, but the 2 which were quite.. "leveled" and had not had "dominating towers" wete build up from a single terrain manufacturer/supplier. Will try to find photos of them, once back within arm reach of my workstation (so in a week).
Yeah my initial thought was that this guy would get the job done but the odds of him cracking an enemy defensive link aren't great. He's got a 51% chance to kill a linked alguacile ML and a 30% chance to be killed in return (assuming you both get cover, optimal range etc). That isn't completely terrible and I'd consider it if I didn't have a better choice. The odds are pretty comparable to those of the TO MSR actually (43/26).