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Rules you would want changed?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by timmy, Jun 23, 2018.

  1. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The feel of rules is important. Transmutation feels like it's an improvement, or a shift to a different tactical state. Planned for and desirable. It also feels biological and organic.

    Low-Tech feels like it's a degradation of capability, getting damaged, less effective than an increased S or W stat. It also feels mechanical and inorganic.

    So even though they do similar things, they have different feels. Personally, I really like that.
     
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  2. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I like it too. However, I do think Infinity would gain more if similar skills were combined into one generic term with the same rules. (This doesn't necessarily mean all troopers need the same stat changes. The rule simply ends as saying to use the new profile provided.) The feel you're looking for can be achieved from the fluff and terminology used.

    Transmutation - Biological/?
    Transmutation - Mechanical/Battle Ravaged/?

    Fluff or any relevant material can use the extended names and descriptions. But when it comes to things like Army where space is a premium or condensed info is preferred, use the first term only. I'd be very curious to see how many of the game rules can be simplified in this manner. Of course agreeing on which rules should be streamlined would be extremely difficult. It's so subjective and people are typically resistant to change.

    I wonder how many levels of AD or MA we actually need for example. If changing them affects points costs as some troops lose small amounts of capability while others gain some... so be it. Infinity has a massive amount as information and rules attached to it. Many small changes in many different areas would add up to a big improvement overall, imo anyway.
     
    #282 Ginrei, Jul 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You're both assuming facts not in evidence. As @meikyoushisui says:

    For the longest time, the Dogwarrior was *the* profile with Transmutation. And dog warriors get better when you hit them. bloody werewolves. It wasn't until N3 (or was that HSN3?) that the Fraacta even existed to get a different stats-mod with Transmutation. For that matter, I'm still surprised that the Fraacta got Transmutation instead of Symbiont Armor (I mean, they are Tohaa, after all!), but I guess there was a desire to make the Fraacta a little tougher to hurt after they land.

    Since Low Tech A always has the same stats shift (for every unit with it thus far), it is a very different rule from Dogwarrior/Fraacta Transmutation, at least in points. Without knowing the points formula, I can estimate that Low Tech A is a fixed cost skill, but Transmutation needs to be recomputed for each profile (because what changes with Transmutation changes with the models that have it).
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Then you misunderstand what I wrote, which is I admit ambiguous.

    I am saying that I don't think stat alterations is part of the Transmutation or Lo-Tech rule, but rather the stats on the new profile is independently set and influences the cost depending on the gain/loss involved - i.e. giving a unit Lo-Tech A doesn't mean the unit will suffer -1 CC, PH, BS, ARM and -3 BTS like the Blackjack on transformation triggering, which is something the Puppettactica confirms.

    Also, I don't think Fraacta got Symbiont to prevent them from getting the +3 on Paramedic and so that a potential future CA pure-doctor would be able to heal the Fraacta.
     
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  5. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Yeah, there's nothing in the rule about stats, it just explains the mechanics of swapping from one profile to another.
     
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I missed the CC and PH loss on the Blackjack.

    Given how strictly most of the stuff in the game is costed, though, I doubt they would just eyeball units with multiple profiles like that.
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    OK, I stand somewhat corrected.

    If Low Tech A has different 'battle-ravaged' profile changes on different units, then it's functionally identical to (bio) Transmutation, which has different profile changes on different units.

    @ijw , is there something else we're not seeing from the open info (that you can talk about)? I mean, it's not like Transmutation still has the Viral Ammo interaction...
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I would assume that Transmutation, Lo-Tech and Symbiont have either a fixed discount value and that the second profile is created cheaper than this value, or that the skills are a function which dictates that the final price point is X% between the first and second profile. I'd guess it's the former and that the reason for the miniscule CC adjustment on the Blackjack is to keep the second profile below this discount.
    Assumption is the key word here, though. This is pure guesswork after all.
     
  9. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how the point values are calculated for Transmutation at all really. My guess... A fixed value seems like a bad idea as the gain from the skill can be wildly different. Imagine the Avatar with a Trans profile of all 1s. The point cost for such a trooper is going to need to reflect the preTrans profile. On the other hand, a Moderator that Transmutes into the Avatar is going to need a pt cost that reflects the Transmuted profile.

    A Fraacta essentially gains 1 wound from it's Trans as the attribute changes seem minuscule. It functions at approximately the same level of performance in either state. Without Trans a Fraacta would be a basic AD troop and cost like 5pts less(very quick estimate). A Dog Warrior's attribute changes are noticeably larger and relevant for 2 wounds but requires taking a wound to activate. I'm not even going to guess what that equates to for cost but the original profile would be dirt cheap in comparison.

    It's extremely difficult to gauge what Trans should cost from a balance and design perspective. If a moderator really turned into the Avatar after taking a wound, I doubt many players would even risk activating it. Dog Warriors become stronger but how much is debatable. So what should their transmuted profile be worth in comparison to the original? I have no idea but i do not look at it as a discount. Trans is always a gain for the trooper, the question is, how much of a gain.

    EDIT: However, I wouldn't be surprised if CB kept it simple and just took an average of the troopers attributes over the total number of wounds and applied a fixed value for the Trans skill. Because as long as they don't make the two profiles wildly different, they can just ignore the attributes and treat Trans as a skill providing extra wounds. KISS
     
    #289 Ginrei, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  10. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Comparing the Dog-Warrior to the Cameronian, the Dogface form costs 4 points; which looks to be about the cost of the ex-imp, irregular profile on its own (assuming the weapons are already paid for).


    That PHY though...
    missed that first time through.
     
  11. Cypherkk

    Cypherkk Member

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    I think Dodge should cancel shots that the die roll beats where as shooting or attacking as a result should not. This would give more choice as to choosing shoot/dodge rather than which is stat is higher.

    Also, cautious move should also count when moving from cover to cover instead of just out of LOS to out of LOS.
     
  12. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    1) That's kind of a mess if I'm reading you right. That means any hits in a face to face go through and it's more side by side. It also really derails crits: Now a crit cancells nothing and beats nothing. It'd shift game balance considerably.

    2) That doesn't make a lot of sense. That weakens AROs and also makes it so any move can be declared cautious as long as it ends in cover from out of LOS/in cover at the start. You can just leapfrog up the board ignoring the entire reactive turn.
     
  13. Cypherkk

    Cypherkk Member

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    number one is how it worked in 2nd edition I think. The winner of the FTF gets all the shots if it's both shoot, but if it's a dodge, dodge negates the hits it beats. More choices do tend to shift the game balance.

    For 2, yes that works if you want to spend all your orders going 4 inches, not necessarily in a straight line if you are trying to keep cover. I guess it would have worked better in N2 with suppression fire being a specific zone, rather than all possible LOS. So there might need to be some adjustment there too.
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    No, the change in crits from N2 to N3 is that they simply cancel in N3 instead of going back to compare the Attributes.
     
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  15. Cypherkk

    Cypherkk Member

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    Thats an entirely/mostly different aspect to the one I was recommending. If you want crits to cancel both shots thats fine and that's separate from the normal superior hit vs. hit roll.

    As I recall, even previously a successful crit won against a superior 'normal' roll.
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Yes, which hasn't changed.

    Sorry, I think I'm missing or misunderstanding something in your earlier post. :-(
     
  17. Whyrocknodie

    Whyrocknodie Well-Known Member

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    I'd like 'retreat' not to end the game, or be removed entirely. I'd also like the intelcom function of classified cards to have no effect on points values in quadrants, etc. Those defensive hacking programs should be usable even if you haven't been targeted by a hacking attack yet, and MSV 3 should be cheaper!
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They should just make it so Retreat works like in the rulebook. Stealing a win because you got put in retreat is shitty design.
     
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  19. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so.
    If you remove this rule, you haven't to play the mission, only kill your opponent.
    But playing the missions is, what make Infinity from 40k for example.
    "In your face" isn't the playstyle of this game.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    "You killed too many of my models therefore I win" is bad design. Anything that encourages noninteractive smoke + button pushing is bad imo. You can (and should) defend yourself while pushing buttons. It's still possible to win some missions while being tabled, in theory; if your opponent makes that mistake that's on them.
     
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