You might as well be saying Martial arts levels should be separated into different skills with different names. Each level does something different but all the levels impact close combat. Strategos and NCO both affect the Lt order. Do you think different Martial Arts skills are worthy of being combined and Lt order skills are not? Are they really such opposites?
Really think you're missing the point being made here, it's not like he's arguing that NCO doesn't effect LT order, but for strategos to work as it is you're required to be the lieutenant, all of the levels are about BEING a good LT. NCO is about taking orders well, and would be exactly Strategos one if it was in strategos.
If you want to reread the posts you'll see I've already addressed all of your points. Strategos is found on non Lt profiles. Having NCO become Strategos lvl0 doesn't prevent it being put on non Lt profiles either. Nor would the change alter any functionality if desired. I've also commented on the fluff aspects of both. @ijw's last comment is different and I've responded. Streamlining isn't about opposing concepts or fluff. It's about making a system more efficient and effective by employing faster or simpler working methods.
What Hierath said. Martial Arts levels aren't equivalent, because apart from L5 they simply refer to the table. Streamlining also involves making rules easier to remember - but putting an opposed concept into the Skill family makes it harder to remember.
I understand the idea to collapse NCO into Strategos but I think it is more intuitive if they are separate skills. For me the difference makes perfect sense. I'm with IJW when he says that it would be harder to remember. However this is a good example that streamlining is a hard job to do and will never please all customers/player. Easy and Naturrally for one is weird and complicated for the other - and vice versa
Could have been Strategos LX - that's kind of the place where Skills go that are similar yet not exactly related. Either way, good Skill to have in the game, I like it.
If you truly have a problem with Martial Arts, how about AD? None of these skills consisting of levels follow any simple pattern. They are related by what they affect. How does having the below make it tougher to remember? Lvl0 = This trooper can spend the Lt Order. Lvl1 = The Lt Order becomes a regular Order.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. It's not just about mechanics, but the logic of the concept.
The problem is Strategos does not in general affect the Lt Order. That is only Lv1. They are about additional boni you get from your Lt being smart. Lv2 and Lv3 have nothing to do with the Lt Order. They affect deployment. If all of them were about the Lt Order i would agree that NCO should be in there.
It's an incredible stretch to claim lvl1 belongs with lvl2 and lvl3 but NCO doesn't belong at all. The only difference between lvl1 and NCO is the Lt order can be used by any trooper in your list vs one single trooper. They function very... very much the same. I get that some people want to cling to the fluff but it's only fluff. Fluff that is adding more rule bloat/text than necessary. Fluff that could easily be written to say the Lt has a special connection with this trooper allowing them to use the order. Having this level accessible to higher levels isn't an issue either. Because quite frankly, I don't see how anyone can say NCO and Strategos don't fit but something like AD Combat Jump having access to AD Parachutist is ok. It's simply accepted because for all intents and purposes the higher level is better. Which is no different for NCO and lvl1.
I like the NCO skill being separate from Strategos. In military units (at least in US) the NCO is the non-commissioned officer that executes the Lieutenants orders in a squad. So to me, it is really easy to remember that NCO’s can use the Lieutenant Order. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
If I understand this correctly... @Ginrei's conceptual grouping is that NCO and Strategos both affect how the Lieutenant order my be spent. @ijw's conceptual grouping is that Strategos is special abilities for your lieutenant, and NCO is special abilities for a non-lieutenant. In any case, I think NCO sounds like an interesting skill.
Not unless the fireteam rules get rewritten or it's directly written into the NCO rules that doing it breaks a link. a trooper stops being part of a Fireteam in the following cases: If the trooper is the Lieutenant and spends the Lieutenant Special Order. Since the NCO trooper is NOT your Lt they don't actually trigger this clause.
I don't deny that keeping the skills separated makes for better fluff. But there is a reason some skills are grouped together. It's about weighing the pros and cons. We don't have Martial Arts levels broken up into separate skills. A new name and description to illustrate +1DMG and another for +1 burst would also be better fluff. But at what cost? IMO Infinity needs a bit more streamlining than it does new fluffy skills.
It'll probably work the same as trying to spend an Irregular order when you're in LoL. If it's not a regular order, you can't use it on a model that's currently in a fireteam.
As said before, MA goes off of the same table, it's silly to keep referring to that example. The levels of AD are all built off of each other, and even LVLX follows all the same rules as the rest of AD. Putting NCO, which requires you to not be a LT into a level of a skill that requires you to be an LT just seems backwards to me. In your line of reasoning, Executive Order and Inspiring Leadership should also be a level of Strategos, as they are about LTs and LT orders correct? You'd be much better arguing that Guard should be a level of MA. (Which most agree with)
My point holds regardless of being on a table or levels. AD does build off each other, and adding NCO to Strategos does exactly the same thing. It may seem backwards but it functions PERFECTLY. In fact we don't even need to specify in the rules that you're required to be the Lt to use those skills. Simply add Strategos level 1-3 on Lt profiles only and we never need to mention that they only work for Lts. (Just doing this change shortens the rules this very moment) Putting Strategos lvl0/NCO on non Lts works as expected. My line of reasoning does not mean Executive order should be added to Strategos. Because you can't have both NCO and Exec on the same skill without causing problems. Adding it instead of NCO still causes problems as more than one trooper might have it available at deployment. Inspiring Leadership has similar problems. Adding it to Strategos adds new abilities making the levels more powerful. NCO becoming lvl0 doesn't provide any other abilities to the higher levels.
In this case it's fluff based on actual military hierarchies, and therefore it's fluff that aids in understanding/memorising the rule. Also, how is it adding more rules bloat/text? No matter whether it's a Skill on it's own or included within Strategos it's still the same number of rules concepts and largely the same amount of text.
Except, in your instance the model meets a fireteam integrity clause which kicks them out: If the trooper is Irregular and uses its Irregular Order. In the case of NCO, it does not meet any clause. so it will function however the NCO rule tells us it functions, but if there's no specifics in that rule about links, it will revert to being a-ok usable in link.
