I know it sounds weird but is the move you perform with Guts formally a Move skill? I ask because last night we had a situation were my Sophotech was engaged in CC with Van Zant, so I used my Forward Observer REM to shoot at Van Zant with Triangulated Fire and he then survives both his ARM Saves. We were then in doubt whether or not if Van Zant could fail his Guts, because even though he couldn't move in CC he could improve his cover by going Prone. However, we then looked at Prone and to go Prone you either need to perform a Movement Skill or go Unconscious and under Engaged state, there's a stringent list of skills you're allowed to perform and Prone is not one of them. So my question is do you just "gain" the Prone state by failing Guts? Because if one were to read the wording on Guts Roll, it sounds to me like you're "placing" the models (kinda' like how Aristeia differentiates between Movement and Placement) when ever you fail Guts and not like your models performs any movement skill after the order resolution. The difference matters because it affects whether or not you're able to go Prone when you're Engaged, due to Guts Roll. Thank you in advance for your answers - Zewrath
I believe you are unable to make a guts roll in CC, the situation shouldn't have occurred in the first place.
Van Zant also has a level of Valor: courage, dogged or NWI I forget which, but in case he had to roll guts, he can just choose the outcome of his guts roll. I just checked some of the rules, and nothing prohibits you from checking Guts while in CC, note: The movement Resulting from a failed Guts cannot be used to exit the CC. However said movement could be used if he is moving away from the LOF of the attacker in this case If he could get himself in total cover. i.e: Total Cover is defined when LOF is conpletely obstructed, it doesn't even need you to be in B2B contact with the piece of Scenery that blocks LOF. So Van Zant could Fail his guts, and move 2 Inches, never leaving the B2B contact with the Sophie, Never moving Towards the REM, and to a Wall or piece of Scenery that Blocks LOF (Sophie does not Block LOF as she is in the engaged state), if said reposition is possible, the CC would have to stop being in LOF of the REM (Something that can happen with corners I believe). And even better, when a trooper fails his Guts roll if he cannot move to get better cover because he already is in Total cover, cannot reach cover Partial or Total, and going prone would not improve his cover or obscure LOF, The trooper can decide to perform no action with his failed guts roll.
The rule is called Guts Rolls (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Guts_Roll), when the bullet says Troops in Close Combat do not make Guts Rolls. It does not mean that you skip performing the physical roll of the die but can use Courage to chose which result you want, it means you don't do any guts at all. Courage allow you to choose the outcome of the roll without making a physical roll of the die, with CC you don't have any outcome to chose as you don't make or skip any guts roll at all. V: Courage allows its user to choose the outcome of any of his own Guts Rolls.
Van Zant is Dogged, so yes he has Courage, but as @Robock just pointed out as I started typing, Guts mechanics simply do not apply to those engaged in close combat.
Hilarious interaction occurred once: my opponent Berzerked a Galwegian in CC with my Taskmaster, my Taskmaster shot the Gal in the Head with his Heavy Pistol (Shock). At resolution, my TM took a wound and the Gal died and was removed from the table. At the conclusion of the order my Taskmaster had failed an ARM roll and wasn't in CC (at the Conclusion). I chose to fail my Guts.
Which since you can't gain better cover to one of the attackers meant your only option was to go prone. TM: "ARGH! I'm dying" Clockmaker: "Stand up" TM: "I'm bleeding out!" CM: "This is embarrassing"
Away from the Danger Zone (B2B) was how we played it. And since it's based on the position the Attack was made not the present location of the Trooper the fact the Gal died is irrelevant (just as if the Gal had Chain Rifled me and died to a Heavy Pistol BS Attack ARO).
I think that's only because Guts Roll rules skip between concepts a LOT. What type of Guts Roll you are forced to make is determined by the origin of the attack, while where you move is determined by the attacker's position. A Guts Roll is only ever described from the point of view of a single attack, but certain conditions may cause you to come under attack from multiple directions. Add to this the recurring problem of the rules using the same word for movement and one of the short skills that causes movement. Danger Zone never actually being properly defined, but left implicit and only ever used as a concept one single time. It's a compound of things that forces you to read it carefully. I say that for nearly all situations the Guts Roll movement is never left up to guesswork (well, except that apparently the Sensor skill which is an attack doesn't cause a Danger Zone in spite of being an AOE... grumble), but it does require some very careful reading. I'd say that inane.imp didn't play out that Guts Roll correctly, but it doesn't really matter all that much.
It depends on how you understand Danger Zone. If it's just applicable to Area of Effect and Templates then we played it wrong, if it's applicable to everything where cover is irrelevant then we played it correctly. It could go both ways. Also, why isn't Sensor Area not the Danger Zone for Sensor?
I honestly don't recall, I got corrected by IJW when I suggested Sensor might be used to force models to make Guts Rolls and move out into the open. Though to be honest, using it to push weak-willed Fusiliers in front of you is a bit silly.
Resolution step mate. You were engaged, cant make a guts rolls, and we didnt discuss danger zone at all. Our discussion was on guts in CC, we found out after that you cant
You Guts in the Conclusion not Resolution Effects and my TM stopped being Engaged during Resolution. Effects. We knew you couldn't Guts in CC, I argued that I wasn't in CC anymore. I still think it wasn't in CC at the Conclusion of the order and should Guts: where it should Guts to is a different problem. And yeah we didn't discuss Danger Zone but it's basically what we did. It's why I moved away the where the Gal was. I also applied Kinematica to the Guts movement and shouldn't have.
Yeah I had to double check that, Guts is applied AFTER resolution, which means you wouldn't be engaged in CC anymore...
Guts movement is a move, but nowhere does it seem to be established as a Move, however neither is relevant to OPs question because Guts simply doesn't apply when Engaged.
I know it's not relevant to that question, but the answer is still relevant to the general clusterfuck Infinity's rules can often be.
