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Speculative Fire Surprise Shot

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Keyrott, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And someone rounding a corner to immediately open up on you is also surprising. So think further, what are the mods for being surprise shot from behind within ZOC? Surprise Shot stacks with Change Facing.
     
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  2. Whyrocknodie

    Whyrocknodie Well-Known Member

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    Good point, that does lend weight to the surprise speculative shot.
     
  3. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    So, to sum up, in contradiction to my initial supposition, it does seem like you can Speculatively Surprise Shot in the current rule-set. Interesting.
     
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  4. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    So Surprise shot + Intuitive attack is an option as well I take it.
     
  5. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    For the sake of consistency, it would have to be...
     
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  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    But it doesn't say that. It says:
    • The user may make a single BS Attack against a target outside his LoF.
    or in spanish
    • Permite realizar un Ășnico Ataque CD contra un objetivo que se encuentre fuera de LDT.
    While I understand what you say (I think), my point is that you don't read the BS Attack card, but only the effects part, because we would enter in a contradiction when including the requirements (for example). So as I see it, at this moment, the Speculative Fire card would be read as:

    With the reason for this being that, if they decide to change BS Attack, then Speculative Fire would be changed aswell because it depends on its mechanics.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Exactly. And because any Skill with the BS Attack Label counts as a BS Attack, this means that it refers to any Skill with the BS Attack label.

    I don't understand, why are you removing text from the Skills? What contradiction in Requirements?

    The Requirements for BS Attack are:

    The user must have LoF towards the target unless the BS Weapon, Special Skill or Equipment used states specifically that it does not require LoF.

    My emphasis, because this reinforces that using Forward Observer etc. counts as a BS Attack.

    And yes, of course any changes to BS Attack will affect Speculative Fire, why wouldn't they? I'm really confused why that's even a question/comment. :hushed:
     
    #47 ijw, Dec 28, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
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  8. ObviouslyDexter

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    Hey IJW! Just to pour a little concrete here for future reference. It's implied that you agree that both speculative fire and intuitive attack can be combined with the effects of surprise shot. I realize that you've made an excellent case in favor due to the wording of the abilities. Would it be possible for you to concretely post yay or nay on the matter?
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Intuitive attack shouldn't work, even if you can declare it, because no weapon with Intuitive Attack (except for Jammers, but Ghazis can't Surprise Attack) goes FtF with enemy rolls.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If this is how it's going to be played, it needs to be stated more clearly than just implied by that FAQ entry.
     
  11. cazboab

    cazboab Definitely not Cazboaz.

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    Intuitive attack can be FTF vs a bs attack or dodge ARO, as explained in the examples, in fact I think the only times its not are when people decide to template you back or do nothing hoping you flub the roll.
     
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  12. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Correct. Intuitive is almost always a FTF roll in the current rule set.
     
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  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Exactly.
     
  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I'm being terrible with the explanation, sorry. Analogy: BS Attack is a program, Speculative Fire is another program. If I "execute" Speculative Fire, I call the program "BS Attack", however the way things work (or at least how I understand them), only the Effects part of "BS Attack" are used, since the Requirements I check against are those of Speculative Fire (and the labels, and the classification, since you don't go "breaking down" an Entire Order into Short Order components). That's why I quoted the Speculative Fire skill card, "slashing" the call for BS Attack to place instead the effects of BS Attack.

    Mind you, I don't really care one way or another if it is broken or not the combo of Surprise Shot + Speculative Fire, as I checked a few posts ago we are talking about 2 Nomad Troops and another 3-4 troops in the entire game (5-6 troops total), and it's quite order intensive. I'm just trying to "dissect", so to speak, the way the thing is written (and I must add, the limitation to Burst 1 should be inside of the skill card, not outside like an afterthought).
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I understand that, but the "BS Attack" part of it isn't face to face, to my understanding. Don't get me wrong, it makes my Sphinx better, I don't mind, but this doesn't seem right. Intuitive Attack itself is *not* a BS Attack, so it seems to me the WIP roll wouldn't interact with Surprise Shot.
     
  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The funny thing is that you can make Intuitive attacks against any troop... so you can use it to FtF between your Sphinx and someone firing back!

    As for the label, Intuitive Attack is "Attack" (like CC Attack and Speculative Fire), but has the same "make a single BS Attack" phrase that is making me chat so lively with IJW, so regardless of logic it would have the same RAW applicability XD.

    As for an ingame explanation, an Intuitive attack is to see something out of the corner of the eye and firing that way with a weapon able to cover a wide zone (chain rifle, flamehtrower...) without thinking, in that regard WIP includes "perception", so to speak.
     
  17. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    I mean, the very first line of Effects starts off with "make a BS Attack", so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Intuitive is an Entire Order Attack, like Speculative, that functions by allowing a BS Attack with modified rules. What I missed earlier is that Surprise Shot counts as a BS Attack in and of itself, and so it can be stuffed into these Entire Order Attacks where ever it says "BS Attack" to combine them.


    INTUITIVE ATTACK ENTIRE ORDER
    Attack.
    REQUIREMENTS
    The user must employ a BS Weapon with the Intuitive Attack Trait.

    EFFECTS
    • Allows the user to make one single BS Attack against an enemy
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    My understanding is that you can't use Intuitive Attack willy-nilly; it has to be against someone you can't normally target.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yes, but Surprise Shot states that the -3 mod only applies if it's FtF with the user's BS Attack or Hacking Attack. The FtF roll is part of Intuitive Attack, which is not a "BS Attack."
     
  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The requirements are limited of you using a weapon able to do an Intuitive attack... just that. So RAW you can. The downside, of course, is that it's an entire order and as such can only be done in your active turn and you have to be placed where the enemy saw you in the previous order.
     
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