Speculative Fire Surprise Shot

Any thoughts on the Speculative Surprise Shot?

 

Answer for the main question is simple: you can't combine speculative fire with surprise shot.

Entire Order Skills (like Speculative Fire):
To declare one of these Skills, the user must expend one Entire Order.

Short Skills (like Surprise Attack)
To declare one of these Skills, the user must expend one Short Skill.

You can't use long + short skill in the same order because:
one order = 2x short skill OR one order = 1x entire order skill

No, is not. Read the skill description:
However, in a BS Attack part of a Coordinated Order, none of the participants could declare Speculative Fire or Intuitive Attack, since these Skills are different than a BS Attack.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coordinated_Orders

 

@Bobman I think it would work, because Speculative Fire lets you make a BS Attack, and Surprise Shot counts as a BS Attack.

 

Surprise Shot is an Optional BS Attack that's correct.
But to activate this Optional BS Attack you need to use half of the order (it is a short skill) and then entire order for Speculative Fire. As far as I know it is possible only in two separate orders :)

Entire order is something that using... entire order to make effect ;)

 

BS Attack (the named Common Skill) is also a Short Skill, so that argument stops Speculative Fire from working at all.

 

Yep. The more I look at the more I think my first thought was wrong. Thanks.

 

The rules need a rewrite, is really what it is.

 

Well, considering how you can ARO against an enemy hacking your model with a bullet (LoF conditioned) and that makes it a Face to Face roll, I don't see how it's relevant to "re-label" to BS attack a hacking attack (which won't lose its "comms attack" label anyway).

RAW I see no reason against stacking both. The fact that Speculative Fire is a long order while Surprise Shot is a short order would have no weight here, since the Long Order would superseed that (however, there is room to say "surprise shot is its own kind of attack, while speculative fire is another one").

The "real life" explanation is that, in Infinity, you (as a trooper/Lt) have a bird's eye of the battlefield thanks to something akin to a Tactical Network (a minimap in a shooting game). In that regard, you know the origin of a normal enemy trooper "using Speculative Fire" (throwing grenades in an arc without line of sight) which gives you a small edge in calculating where would the projectile land. However, if a "ghost" (a marker, registered as tentative contact or even friendly) is the origin, you get little to no warning, explainig why you would try to dodge at -9 instead of -6: the grenade landing at your feet is a complete surprise.

As for the brokeness of the combo... we are talking about 1 entire order to enter marker state, and another entire order for a single dice at -6 (plus/minus distance modifiers), not to mention you need a trooper with both a marker state and a terminal template weapon. The troops able to do that are, I think:

• Shinobu Kitsune (with smoke grenades, so... not really relevant).
• Foxtrot (CD 11 LGL 20pts 1SWC).
• Uxía McNeill (with smoke grenades)
• Hunzakut (CD 11 LGL 18pts 0.5SWC).
• Intruder (CD13 grenades, from 35pts 0SWC).
• Prowler (CD 12 grenades 31pts profile).
• Igao (stun grenades, 25 or 27 pts 0SWC)
• Clipsos (Nimbus plus grenades)
• Saito Togane (with smoke grenades)

So 9 troops could do this, but 4 do not require a target (smoke and Nimbus+), leaving the non-lethal Stun Grenades of the Igao, the Foxtrot and the Hunzakut with Light Grenade Launchers, and the Intruders and Prowlers with Phis-powered Grenades.

 

But Speculative Fire says you can make a BS Attack - it does not say you can make a Surprise Shot. I know Surprise Shot has "bs attack" under traits, but that isn't really defined and can't be taken to mean anything.

 

This was kinda my reasoning to begin with.

 

Surprise Shot is a BS Attack, as stated in the FAQ.

 

Ok, I think @Maniac has hit the bullseye with the Structure of an Order reference:

Of course, it can be argued further ("it refers to combine two entire orders" and the like), but I think that would be like beating a dead horse, so regardless of other interactions, the bottom line would be: Speculative Fire is an entire order skill, and as such it cannot mix with other orders.

As a sidenote, in spanish the expression "no son combinables de ninguna manera" might be better translated as "cannot be combined in any way", because of the verb refers to the third person of the plural.

 

The problem with that is how we read the skill "card". As I tend to, "BS Attack" is the name of the Skill, and "short skill/ARO" refers to the Order Composition, while "Attack" indicates the type. In that regard, Speculative Fire is its own skill, of the Attack type (like BS Attack), requiring a Short Order.
Our disagreement would come from the first Bullet Point in the Speculative Fire skill, but frankly as I read the skill cards the effects of that bullet point would be to change it for the Bullet Points 1, 2 and 4 of the BS Attack skill card.

 

Again, as per the FAQ, Surprise Shot is a BS Attack.

So any argument that stops you using Surprise Shot as part of Speculative Fire also stops you using BS Attack.

 

Sorry, but Speculative Fire is labeled as "Attack", then inside its effects sends you to do a B1 BS Attack. Surprise shot is labeled as "BS Attack", and then it says that you are making a BS attack on the first bullet point of the effects (" the user's BS attack or Hacking attack and the enemy..."). That's why I say we are disagreeing in how the skill card should be read.
Please note that the other skill mentioned in the FAQ (Forward Observer) is also labeled as BS Attack.

For your conclusion to be right, then both Surprise Shot and Speculative Fire should be labeled as BS Attack, in which case it would be correct to say that any argument stoping the use of Surprise Shot as part of Speculative Fire breaks BS Attack. As things stand, you are making a paralelism between oranges and apples (both fruits, but different).

Fun fact: CC Attack is labeled as "Attack" aswell...

 

Speculative Fire doesn't need to have the BS Attack label for my argument to work, and that would add new issues anyway.

Skills with the BS Attack Label count as a BS Attack. So I'm not comparing oranges and apples, I'm comparing oranges with oranges.

This means that when Speculative Fire says (paraphrased) 'make a single BS Attack Short Skill' you can replace 'BS Attack' with any Skill that has the BS Attack Label.

 

Wouldn't the logic dictate that the surprise shot has no effect on this type of attack? My thinking is that a grenade coming over a wall is a surprise whether or not the trooper throwing it is wearing camouflage or not.

I thought that it is supported in the system by any attempt to Dodge suffering a -3 attempt because there is no LoF to the attacker for the template, which is essentially the same as the Surprise Attack rule.