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Smoke Special Dodge and Fireteam

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by ChoTimberwolf, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    So we got a Fireteam Triad one member with smokes two without all 3 get an ARO. I want to use smoke special dodge with the one who has smokes, what will the other two do? Idle because they can`t smoke special dodge? This seems the most likely scenario for me so far?
    Also does he get a burst 2 on his smoke dodge? Probably yes
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Smoke/Eclipse Grenades are BS weapons with the special dodge trait, so the skill to use them is BS Attack.

    There is no such skill as Smoke Dodge.

    If you want to keep them linked they all need to either declare BS Attack or decline to ARO. (Idle is technically not a valid ARO declaration).

    The smoke will be burst 2, but both shots must must target the exact same point in ARO.
     
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  3. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    I know that there isn't a skill smoke dodge its called Special Dodge, so triad two could shoot while the last smokes? Thats pretty useful and strong and is it bs or ph? Cause throwing a smoke is ph?
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Special Dodge isn't a skill either, it's a weapon trait.

    Yes, burst 2 smoke is pretty neat.
     
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  5. SoMann

    SoMann Member

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    And remember, the one with the smoke will only cover itself with the smoke. The others get no cover from the smoke during that order.
    They can do any skill with BS attack and ARO or nothing without breaking the team.
     
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  6. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Thanks now I want a unit with normal smokes and Fireteam Triad for my gao rael ;)
     
  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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  8. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    daboarder whats with kaeltar?
     
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Nope. It is a trait of the Smoke Ammunition.

    Anyway, Special Dodge Smoke is not the same thing as BS attack. It being totally different from Dodge is a given, since it has been explicitely stated on the Special Dodge entry. It being declared as "Special Dodge" is a needed thing to do, since you CAN use it as a BS attack IF you are TARGETTING the attacker (because then the whole Fireteam is doing "BS Attack" with the same TARGET, that being the enemy model that generated the ARO).

    Remember a simple fact: one ARO has to has the SAME [model/group of models generating ARO] (and you cannot split Burst) for the whole Fireteam. That means, if a single enemy fires on your Fireteam let's say from Deploymet Zone to Deployment zone, since you cannot declare that trooper as a target for your Smoke grenades you cannot do "special dodge and fire", simply because the smoke would go to the ground ("Targetless") while the weapons would go to the far away model ("Target").
    Were the enemy at Grenade range, you can simply target the enemy with all weapons and declare all do a BS attack.

    Further discussion, if you are not satisfied with my reasons, would require HellLois' word.
     
    #9 xagroth, Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  10. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    thanks xagroth so do I understand it correctly you can only special dodge smoke as bs if it hits the attacker? so generally you can only use special dodge smoke in aro and in fireteam if the one with the smoke is the only one getting an aro from the fireteam?
     
  11. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    That is not a fact...
    ARO is the same for all the member of Fireteam. BS Attack. Each with its own rules and traits.

    BTW, the requirement of targeting the same enemy/spot for all the models is valid only for Coordinated Orders, G:Sync and so on, not for Fireteam.
     
  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    I'm not sure where to start. :-(

    Special Dodge is clearly listed as a weapon trait for Smoke Grenades: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Grenades#Smoke_Grenades

    Special Dodge Smoke is always a BS Attack, unless using Speculative Fire. The Special Dodge part is not optional in any way, and is based purely on whether the other trooper's LoF will be blocked. The Special Dodge rules are not dependant at all on whether the Smoke Grenade is targeting the ground or an enemy trooper.

    This is flat-out wrong.

    All the Fireteam members will be declaring the same ARO Skill, BS Attack.
    Any of those that are using weapons with the Targetless Trait do not have to target the active trooper, and will still be declaring BS Attack. This also matters for troopers with Pitchers, who can choose to fire their Repeater(s) at a spot on the ground.
    Any weapons that have the Special Dodge Trait that block LoF of the active trooper will apply the Special Dodge rules for any attacks against that reactive trooper.
     
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  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    This will teach me to multitask at work... Simpler solution: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Smoke_Special_Ammunition
    Emphasis mine

    Emphasis, again, mine.

    Thus: Firing or throwing Smoke ammo => ALWAYS a Special Dodge.
    Special Dodge is NOT a Dodge.

    Unless there is a part of the rules that says "Special Dodge" is the same thing as "BS Attack", they are different.

    I stand, however, in that trying to get @HellLois' attention might be the only way to get an official answer.
     
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  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    THERE IS NO SPECIAL DODGE SKILL. You literally cannot declare it as a Skill, because it's a trait not a Skill.

    Smoke Grenades and Smoke LGLs are fired with the BS Attack Skill, like all other BS Weapons.

    The other issue is that unless you declare BS Attack, there are no rules for resolving the Smoke Grenade, such as measuring range, Burst etc.
     
  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    From http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Smoke_Special_Ammunition

    Example of Impact Template weapons and Smoke
    In his Active Turn, a Shaolin Monk decides to lob a Smoke Grenade at a few Fusiliers in order to sneak up on them. The Shaolin declares a Special Dodge with his Smoke Grenade and places the Template on the table. A total of 3 Fusiliers are affected by the Template's Area of Effect.
    Two of them declare BS Attack as their ARO against the Shaolin's declaration. This means there are two Face to Face BS Rolls against the one PH Roll made by the Shaolin.
    The third Fusilier does not have LoF to the Shaolin but, being affected by the Area of Effect, he can react with a Dodge in ARO. He declares Dodge so that, if he passes his Roll, he can move outside the Template. In this situation, the Fusilier must make a Normal PH-3 Roll to Dodge.
    The dice roll, and the Shaolin does better than the two firing Fusiliers, so he gets to leave his Smoke Circular Template on the table and avoid both attacks.
    Meanwhile, the Dodging Fusilier passes his Normal PH-3 Roll and moves 2 inches to get outside the Circular Template.
    Imagine that one of the Fusiliers who declared a BS Attack loses his Face to Face Roll against the Shaolin, but the other Fusilier who declared a BS Attack wins it. In that case, the Shaolin would avoid the first Fusilier's Attack, but would be forced to make an ARM Roll by the second Fusilier's BS Attack. In addition, the owner of the Shaolin would have to remove the Smoke Template from the table.
     
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  16. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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  17. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    So my summary so far is, smoke dodge is weird and unclear?
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Too many things in the rulebook are in that position, I'm afraid.

    From experience: I have *never* seen a group of Myrmidons in an Enomotarchos Fireteam with Phoenix to ARO with Smoke when Phoenix AROes with his Heavy Rocket Launcher (assuming both Phoenix and at least 1 Myrmidon were able to declare an ARO), which strikes me more than odd if you could.
     
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  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    You haven't? That's standard tactics unless the player wants to leave Phoenix's LoF open for later AROs.
     
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