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Mobile Brigada with Missile Launcher should cost 39.

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by WildSam, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. WildSam

    WildSam Member

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    It is natural that Missile Launcher costs 5 points more than Combi Rifle, 1 point less than Spitfire and 3 points less than HMG on same unit (with no other difference in profiles). At least it does for every other unit in the game beside Mobile Brigada.
    I compared it with every other ML profile in the game and it seems Mobile Brigada with ML (40 points right now) is overpriced by single point for some reason.

    I suspect it isn't some elaborate state-of-art balancing - nerfing single profile cost by 2.5%, huh? Looks like typo or such.

    We deserve our rightful point back. Can somebody from Corvus comment about it?
     
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  2. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    Single point difference is usually result of rounding off procedure. Result could be rounded up in some cases and rounded down in another.
    Looks like MB is case of rounded up.
     
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  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    What troopers and math brought you to this conclusion?
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Suggestion: do not look at the HRL Proxy Mk4 profile. You will cry. A lot :p
     
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  5. WildSam

    WildSam Member

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    MULTI+LF Brigada costs same 39 (as ML should), but rounded down?
    ML Father-Knight ends up as 49, Janissaries are 37 ( those closest to Brigada) and both are rounded down.

    Not sure if "inconsistent rounding" changes my point - it's inconsistent and suspicious and probably costs us extra point for no particular design/balance reason.

    All ML profiles (for sake of simplicity, deeply looked only at clearer variants, preferably ML only): Fusiliers, Bolts, Father-Knights, Swiss Guard, Zhanshi, Hac Tao, Zuyongs, Line Kazaks and Tankhunters (those got similar static shift relative to AP HMG, which seems to cost HMG+3), Ghulams, Halqa, Govads, Janissaries, Alguaciles, Grenzers, Riot Grrls, Morat Vanguard, Rodoks, Keisotsu and *Unidrons.

    Only counterexample are Unidrons, which get ML+LS for 20 (which is usually +4) vs Spitfire for 18 (which is usually +1), so there ML costs one point less it should or Spitfire is one extra expensive. Comparing with Umbra (I think only other unit with stimiliar set of weapons) gives away latter, so ML point costs relative to other profiles seems to be static around all ranges of troop types, costs and factions.

    Focus on Combi/HMG/Spitfire because those are common weapons on ML-capable units.
     
    #5 WildSam, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    How about this...

    MB ML is not over-priced by a single point but their combi etc are under-priced by a single point. Tell CB to make the adjustment please.
     
  7. WildSam

    WildSam Member

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    Think bigger: what if every other ML profile in the game is underpriced? We could nerf every other faction (riots go harris and get spitfire anyway) in one swing.
     
  8. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    Just don`t fix yourself on integer values. ML could cost 5.2 points or 5.4. So in some cases total cost could result X.6 rounded as X+1, in some cases X.1 rounded as X.
    Integer point values in world of 3 point models are a lie)))
     
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  9. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Do you play PanO?
    I've heard, that those destructive comments came mostly from dissatisfied people. ;)
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

    I don't play PanO. I play all of CA and some Nomads. I'm just pointing out other possibilities. People tend to jump to the ones that favor them or fit their agenda. It's entirely possible it's the other way around.
     
  11. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    I'm a proponent of Occam's razor.

    Your argument is like the following joke:
    Radio host: Caution, theres a wrong-way driver on the Autobahn.
    Driver: Only one! Hunderts!
     
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  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    While that's a nice principle, the number of assumptions isn't the only factor. But I don't mind focusing on that. The assumptions being made by the OP are based off of many units that simply are not relevant. They are not HI, not the same skills, and not the same loadouts. Unless of course we have the formula to explain them all. Do we?

    So how many units actually match well enough to be relevant? At that point I might consider Occam's Razor.

    Also, there is a precedent for other troopers across factions not fitting perfectly into the same formula people come up with. So even if the MB ML is the odd one out, maybe it's normal for these exceptions to exist in Infinity. Otherwise all the other exceptions must be wrong as well. And what's more likely in that case? That all those profiles have incorrect point values or they're meant to be that way?

    [​IMG] MOBILE BRIGADA HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 42)
    [​IMG] MOBILE BRIGADA Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 33)
    [​IMG] MOBILE BRIGADA Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 40)

    [​IMG] JANISSARY HMG / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 40)
    [​IMG] JANISSARY Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 31)
    [​IMG] JANISSARY Missile Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (2 | 37)

    [​IMG] FATHER-KNIGHT Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 43)
    [​IMG] FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49)

    So what conclusions can we draw from the 3 units above? The only constant is the Boarding shotgun and ML. But we have 3 different increases in points. The MB pays 7pts + 2SWC, the Jan pays 6pts + 2SWC, and the FK pays 6pts + 1.5SWC. What indicates the MB ML is the one in error?

    [​IMG] SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68)
    [​IMG] SWISS GUARD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 69)

    [​IMG] ZÚYǑNG HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    [​IMG] ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26)
    [​IMG] ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36)

    What about these two? Why is the SG paying an extra 0.5SWC for it's HMG?
     
    #12 Ginrei, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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  13. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    Lets review how rounding works shall we,

    0<0.5 round down,
    1>0.5 round up,
    =0.5 apply rules pertinent to system

    Unless you have CB exact formula (I suspect you dont) then all the math makes sense as none of your comparisons are 1:1
     
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  14. Alz

    Alz Well-Known Member

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    Because the Swiss Guard gets more out of the HMG than the Zuyong. Top of the line HI stats vs Low-end HI stats. TO vs No relevant skills.
     
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  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Then shouldn't the same apply to the ML profile? If your logic held then the Zuyongs ML should only cost 1.5SWC... but it doesn't. It costs the same as the SG.

    EDIT: My point is these things don't fit some neat formula anyone's figured out well enough to be able to sit here and say the MB ML cost is clearly an error.

    EDIT 2: Look at the FK ML. It's 0.5SWC less than other supposedly similar platforms yet it has more BS, ARM etc. If there was a change to the SWC shouldn't it cost more based on your logic, not less?

    Infinity isn't as simple as looking at a few profiles and drawing conclusions. There's a lot more going on.
     
    #15 Ginrei, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  16. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Why would you care?
     
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  17. Alz

    Alz Well-Known Member

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    And that's one of the things I actually like!

    Back on topic, I'd say high burst weapons and "special ammo" weapons SWC goes a bit differently I think. For example, MSR is 1,5 SWC in an Alguacile, a Hexa or an Intruder.

    With High B. weaps you get more value out of higher CD (as you roll more dices). Meanwhile, with low B SWC weapons you dont get as much difference as its often 1 or 2 dices instead of 4 or even 5.

    With that in mind, my reasoning with Swiss Guard, Father Knight and Zuyong ML Comparison is something along the lines of:

    SG - He's gonna pay the "maximum", because he has a very powerful skill for that weapon, as it mitigates greatly the low burst. Plus TO ML is scary scary shit.
    FK - He's an expensive trooper without any modifier to help with the missile launcher, + he's paying stats that dont go that well with ML. Hence the discount.
    Zuyong - My guess is that Zuyong is "too cheap" in points for its value here for a ML HI. CD 13 is "less important" as you only need one shot to hit in order to mess with whatever is in front of you, and you're tough enough to maybe take a bit of orders. So both LSG and "high" SWC cost (As ML is always 1,5 or 2 SWC I think) is there to "kinda" balance a possible spam of them, moreso when they get the link option. That's the reasoning I see at least.
     
  18. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Here my assumptions(!) to your arguments. And you'r right, we don't know the exact calculation formula.

    MB and JANISSARY have linkoptions in their sectorial armylists, i think, thats the reason, why FK has only costs of 1.5 SWC for his Missile Launcher.

    Cause I know, these argument will come, i don't know, why the Zuyong has only 1.5 SWC costs for the HMG, but i thing, the SWC costs not only depedning on the stats of an unit but also to the composition of the whole armylist.


    Thats an unfair comparison. If you would compare the SG with the HAC TOA, you could see a pattern

    [​IMG] SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68)
    [​IMG] SWISS GUARD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 69)

    [​IMG] HAC TAO HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 68)
    [​IMG] HAC TAO Missile Launcher, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 65)

    Both have the same SWC with similar statlines. The higher ammount of SWC costs could be explaned due to her TO Camo.


    You are totaly right, but i don't thing, anybody has made these unshakeable statement.

    See my suggestion above

    YES!

    My last statement:
    I agree we disagree in many points :stuck_out_tongue: :beers:
     
  19. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    Except the OP did make this 'unshakable' statement
     
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  20. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    SWC costs aren't done as exactly to a formula as points costs. There are rough guidelines but SWC is often adjusted to make a profile more/less appealing.
     
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