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Splitting the orders between multiple combat groups

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Seraphin, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. Seraphin

    Seraphin Well-Known Member

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    It's hardly the rules question, nor it is related to how the 'Infinity Army' works. Feel free to move it to relevant area :)

    Consider the following:
    I have list with 14-16 regular orders (2 of them won't be deployed, e.g. AD trooper or TO) plus maybe 1-2 irregulars. Anyway I won't end up with 2 full combat groups, so now I have to split orders I have between those.
    Let's also assume I have one 5-man fireteam for defensive purposes and 3-4 support / ARO only models.

    I've used to setup my ARO pieces along with support in one group and put active-turn stuff into another group (usually having full 10 orders there). But if I start first, it's pretty obvious for my oponent which group should lose the 2 orders at the beginning.

    I thought that maybe a good idea is to balance groups more to keep for example 1 TO in one group, AD in second group, keep both groups not full to move rambo-models using command token to group with higher count of orders / fits me more.

    What are your strategies for setting such groups? Are there some rules of thumb, or every list should be treated individually?
     
  2. Vakarian

    Vakarian Bad Nomad

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    At 16 regular orders I would strongly consider a breakdown like this:

    8 reg/1 irreg/1 "hidden" per group

    Put some ARO pieces and some active pieces in each group. It becomes easy to support attackers with each group and you can react to and exploit gaps more easily.

    At only 14 regular orders I might consider a different breakdown. I often end up there with Nomads or Starco and will typically put something "useful" in the smaller second group like a camo infiltrator that can either grab objectives or attack in the midfield on 4-5 orders (often a Bandit). The rest of the orders in that group will be support pieces, like hackers, that might use one order or might not act at all. The main group stays at 10 reg or 9 reg/1 irreg then. I also often have a surprise hiding in the second group waiting to be command token'd over once something dies to exploit whatever holes might have opened up in the opponent's defenses.

    Always curious to see what other people do too!
     
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  3. sgthulka

    sgthulka Well-Known Member

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    IMHO, the minimum you want if you're going to split groups is 16, so you can split into 8 and 8. If you think about it, if you have 10-6 your opponent will take out of the 10 and you'll end up with 8-6. If you have 8-8, your opponent will take out of the most threatening looking and you'll have 8-6, so it ends up being a wash, except you're at a slight disadvantage in the second case because your most threatening looking group has 6 orders, whereas in the former case your most threatening group has 8 orders.

    I've tried that quite a bit and I've come to the conclusion I personally prefer 10-6 groups, since you end up at 8-6 anyway. You can still have a long-range threat in that 6 order group, so you can still be really efficient, using your six orders to hose down ARO threats with an HMG (for example) and therefore clearing the way for a rambo piece in group 1 to use all its orders to charge into the enemy deployment zone. Now there might be an advantage later in the game to have 8-8...for example I've run double tag lists with a TAG 8 orders and a TAG in each group. Yes, on turn one, I start with the same 8-6, but on turn 2 I usually have two tags both able to attack with seperate large order pools. Or, you might have an 8-8 split with one group having a holo unit pretending to be something really threatening to bait your opponent into taking the orders from that group. So there are reasons to do it; I just think in general in most situations you're better off just filling one order group to max.
     
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  4. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I usually have the second group have 3 usable orders and a few small tasks that can help group 1 on the first turn. Here's a pretty typical cg2 for me:

    [​IMG] Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    [​IMG] INTRUDER (X-Visor) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 43)
    [​IMG] JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] TOMCAT Engineer Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges + 1 Zondcat / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] ZONDCAT Electric Pulse. (4)

    2 SWC | 101 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Intruder is for clearing an ARO then countering WB, Moran can move the Koalas/repeater, clear mines, or take an objective, Jaguar can throw smoke, and the Tomcat is outside CG1 to swap in later. It gives some sort of tool to enable the main group in most situations. If I have room for further orders I might put something like the Daktari or a Jaguar Panzerfaust, if I have a lot of orders maybe even a Jaguar Haris. Lupe can make a good solo troop for CG1 because between smoke and specialist she always always had something to do.

    Basically I think CG2 should have specialized tasks to counter tactics intended to disable CG1.
     
  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    That's usually what I do with group two as well. I pick one thing I want to be able to do that I will almost always want to do and take that + another utility unit. For example, I play a group two that looks like this pretty often:

    [​IMG] Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] SAITO TOGAN or ONIWABAN
    [​IMG] RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    0.5 SWC | 88 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Another thing I've learned is that 9 regular orders can be more threatening than 10 in some armies, especially JSA. I never take more than 9 orders in group one outside of LI generally, and my philosophy is that its better to take 9+5, have the opponent not sure which group to take orders from, and then move a group 2 Oniwaban/Saito/Kitsune depending on which group I get command tokened in. If they take from the 9 orders group I leave them alone and spend 5-6 orders on them on turn one, or if they take from group 2 and I decide I want to use them I just command token them to group one. I'm left with another piece I can spend orders on in group 2 (reposition and mine, maybe shoot something, find a position to suppressive fire on) and I get the full value out of my Oniwaban.
     
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  6. Seraphin

    Seraphin Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the suggestions, these are some interesting things to consider for future listbuilding :)
     
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  7. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Unfortunately I don't think this is possible because, although I may be wrong, the order is probably [CG change, order generation, removing orders].

    In a similar vein I've put a Jaguar Panzerfaust in CG1 before because his Dogged makes sure he doesn't leave a body, guaranteeing I get a slot for the Tomcat.
     
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  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I think it depends on each individual list.

    You can have two lists that look the same, both with 16 regular orders, but look very different underneath. A list with a 100~ point model and all cheerleaders isn't going to benefit from even combat groups. A list with two 50~ point models can potentially get more work done being driven by 8 orders each.

    It's about what you want to do with each trooper. A Speculo or Ninja isn't the most expensive trooper but can sometimes make use of all those orders. You can think of it a bit like the active vs reactive pieces with plenty more to consider. Sometimes you'll want to spend a groups orders moving your AROs into place. Once in position drop your AD next turn and spend those orders on it.

    One danger with split combat groups is redundancy. Typically, split combat groups is going to mean less quality back up. So if that active piece dies without a second trooper to spend the orders on, that combat group is wasted. More risk, more reward.

    I'm a fan of split combat groups. I like each one to have a good attack piece and specialist as a minimum. Worst case scenario your rambo is crit but you can always use orders to push buttons. If you only have 3 attack pieces they will be split 2 & 1. Command tokens exist. If the lone attacker dies, move one piece and you're back at 1 & 1.
     
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Very much this, though I almost always just build a 10-order list.
     
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  10. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Honestly I just run out of CG slots before I run out of points. Core, Bandit, Moran, 2 AD, Daktari... oh shoot I'm at 10 already.
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    True enough. I have the same problem if I try to make a Keisotsu Core list in JSA. Yuriko, Kempeitai, Keisotsu hacker, HMG, and ML, then Tokusetsu doc and engineer with 2 helperbots (7 orders) is only 126 points.
     
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  12. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    I am always recommending limiting groups to 9 orders (unless you have TO, AD or some amazing alpha striker to put ten orders into it) so your opponent will be always wary of hidden units. 5man def link can be a source of orders for both irregulars or highburst platforms, so 5+AD and 9+TO would be my go to.

    Sadly, i play Haqq/HB mostly, so i am almost always ending with 10/1+9irreg Kappa
     
  13. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    FTFY [emoji846]
     
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  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    As long as you're not running 2 symetric combar groups there isn't much of a point not to feesd your better troops more Orders.

    When your list includes a 40+ points excellent rambo in one of the groups he is gonna utilize the extra Orders much better early on than your other troops.

    Every troop benefits from Orders so it os neutral to want more Orders for Group 2 to keep up with 1. Stil, focussing one one group at a time and sacking the other one yields better results following probability.
     
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