I'm... not a fan... of a lot of what was presented to us in the recent Uprising book, but looking for silver linings one thing it offered us in spades was information on specific Yu Jing military units, not enough to construct a full order of battle but a lot more detail for figuring out how the military of the StateEmpire is structured. I've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole with it, we'll get to that thread eventually, but at the moment I've hit a gap when it comes to the Banner Armies. We actually have a lot of information to work with on them, but I'm wondering if others have spotted details I've missed. - We know that there are eight Banner Armies in the StateEmpire. Based on descriptions, I've been seeing them as essentially theatre commands, with theatres covering a whole planet/system. - They definitely include air, artillery, and mechanized forces, though the bulk of their troops are Light Divisions of Zhanshi (Uprising even gave us "100,000 troops in five divisions" which lets us peg the number of soldiers per division at 20,000, though the Heavy Divisions of Invincibles are likely smaller). - We know that while the Invincible Doctrine has led to formation of Invincible Armies, which I take to be the intended replacements for the Banners, there are Heavy Divisions of Invincibles within the Banner Armies as well... this makes some sense, modernization in StateEmpire forces not just the formation of new overarching commands for Invincibles but also upgrading key units within the existing commands, Heavy Infantry forces bolstering Light Infantry armies. - We know that Guijia Regiments serve alongside Banner forces, but seem to exist outside their structure (a particular example is the Blue Wolves Regiment, which we know from fighting Jotums on Svalarheima, which is clearly defended by the White Banner Army, but that the Regiment is headquartered on Shentang). - We know that the 'Eight Banner Armies' draws inspiration from the system of Manchu/Qing armies, but that the actual banners are not carried over (the Qing Banners were Yellow, White, Red, and Blue, repeated a second time with an added border). Digging around the setting material, we know of seven Yu Jing planet/system theatres: Yutang, Shentang, Earth, Mars, Svalarheima, Human Edge, and Paradiso, with Paradiso having been such an active warzone both during the NeoColonial Wars and now with the Combined Army invasion that one could posit two theatres, Yingxiang/Norstralia and Daheng/Septentria, for a total of eight. The Banner Armies I've been able to find mention of in canon material are listed below, along with the locations they were deployed/referenced: White Banner Army - Huangdi/Svalarheima Yellow Banner Army - Earth Red Banner Army - Mars, Shentang Orange Banner Army - Shentang Blue Banner Army - Paradiso, (with the speaker, talking of colleagues, on Yutang). Green Banner Army - Paradiso (Norstralia, Septentria). 2nd Green Banner Army - Paradiso (Septentria). [Unknown colour] Banner Army - ? Knowing that, the breakdown seems apparent: White Banner on Svalarheima, Yellow on Earth, Red on Mars, Orange on Shentang, Green on Paradiso-Norstralia, 2nd Green on Paradiso-Septentria. Blue is more tenuous, and there is one Banner colour I haven't been able to find mention of... perhaps it is the Yutang Banner, but historically it'd be White or Yellow which were most highly regarded, it feels more fitting for Human Edge, leaving the Yutang Banner for something different, perhaps fancier, a 'Jade Banner Army' for defending the heart of Yu Jing. Alternatively, perhaps the system of Sectorial Armies is far more extensive than it seemed, and the Orange Banner is from Yutang, with Shentang defended by culturally-affiliated units.
I know that sci-fi always misses with the scale, but that number is comically low for an interplanetary force
@fatherboxx I'm not sure if that's the whole force, depends on how one interprets the phrasing. It was the force planned to deploy against the Japanese uprising on Earth's Japanese archipelago. @ambisinister Dawn has me rather confused, since Yu Jing seems to have significant forces and territorial holdings there. The reason I'd assumed it would have no Banner is entirely a guess as to politics... Dawn is still disputed, while establishing a Banner Army seems a clear declaration a region is part of the StateEmpire. Has Yu Jing reached the point it can openly treat its Dawn territories as part of the state, or do they still want to be able to fall back on the cover that their occupying forces are just there to defend commercial interests and scientific expeditions?
Interesting. I wonder then if A) troops on Dawn are pulled from other banners or B) there exists military assists outside the Banners or C) maybe there is a banner that doesn’t cover a particular theater but instead is Reserve/Response force designed to deploy in regions outside of State control
If I'd had to guess, and knowing a bit on Chinese culture, the banner would be Black. Got to have the Yin to the Yang. No idea as to what their responsibilities are. Black is also considered a powerful color and associated with Water. Unlike in the west where we consider it as bad. Actually white is the color of death and mourning. Just found a wiki explaining colors in Chinese culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_in_Chinese_culture
There is definitely some confirmed deployment of troops under one Banner into the area covered by another, the Red Banner was fighting on Mars and Shentang during the Uprising, and the Blue Banner fought on Paradiso which is pretty clearly home to the Green Banner. Moving troops from one theatre to another can seem a bit odd, why not just transfer the units to the local Banner, but I can imagine you have a lot of institutional politics with commanders not wanting to lose the glory and accountants not wanting to lose the budget allocation. The idea of a Black Banner as a reserve seems sensible, running with the association with water to position it as flowing and flexible, moving into place wherever it is needed, be it to bolster the front lines of Paradiso or defend not-legally-annexed holdings on Dawn.
It definitely couldn't be whole Banner Army, there are still other theatres that the "Earth Banner Army" have to cover - at least the south border with PanOceania (which I expect would be pretty militarised area), and the Central Asian territory wouldn't be probably calm as well. I could easily imagine that the real strength of a Banner Army could be 1M and above... with an emphasis on above, if you count active military personel of today PRC, ROC, both Koreas, Vietnam and Thailand, which are the biggest member states of Yu Jing, you'll reach a number far beyond 1M. There is a location called Yianchi City in southern part of Novy Cimmeria, that sounds like a permanent settlement to me.
20,000 troops per division is about right for a modern US-style force. There should be a lot more than 5 divisions in a Banner, those 5 divisions were the ones assigned to put down the Uprising in low-population Japan.
Dont get hung up on X-divisions per banner, that is the western approach to unit formations as a hold over from Napoleonic formations. The soviet/Chinese doctrine places far more emphasis on an 'army' being a reference to the command element, and not the units underneath it. So 'green banner army' is the command element consisting of the commander, and the support structure, all other units below army level are assigned and moved as needed, so much so that you can have lower elements that are the size of other armies, armies.
There are still 'Divisions' in a Soviet-style Army. (I have the US Army's field manual on the Red Army's organization from 1991 sitting on my computer). An 'Army' is a formation that is made up of multiple divisions. In a Combined Arms Army, there's an HQ, 2-3 Motor Rifle (mechanized infantry) Divisions, plus a couple Tank Divisions, artillery (ranging from 152mm guns all the way up to Scud missiles!), and various supporting units that are Regiments or Brigades in strength. A Tank Army has ~4 Tank Divisions and a Motor Rifle Division. There were something like 6 Armies stationed in East Germany alone during the Cold War. Not counting the actual East German army! I'm assuming that a Banner is at least the size of an Army, if not the size of a Front. A Front was an ad-hoc formation, comprising as many Armies and as much other equipment (like tactical air support) as necessary to accomplish a strategic-level mission or operation. In the Cold War, there were three basic 'Fronts' that would likely shape out: Northern Group of Forces in Poland would probably take the northernmost couple of divisions in East Germany, Group of Soviet Forces in Germany (GFSG) would handle the rest of the troops in East Germany, and the Central Group of Forces in Austria and Czechoslovakia would cover the southern part of West Germany. Also, we're starting to get into a concept called the Span of Control. A very good person might be able to control 7 'things', most people can handle 3-4 pretty easily. A few people can only handle 2. If you look at any military, there are 3 squads (plus a weapons squad in support) per platoon. There are usually 3 platoons (plus a weapons platoon in support) per company. There are usually 3 companies plus support elements in a battalion. Three battalions plus support in a Regiment/Brigade Combat Team. Three regiments/BCTs plus support in a division. Once you get to a Regiment/BCT, your support element finally gets bigger than a single battalion. At the Division, your support is usually bigger than two Regiments/BCTs. But all that is your support stuff, which is not the unit commander's job to manage while in combat. A unit commander usually has 3-4 'things' to handle in combat, and a person to handle the day-to-day stuff of his support elements while out of combat.
I was thinking along ww2 lines, where armies were in reality more ad-hoc formations, and from a manpower perspective division = battalion, corps = division, ect. Admittedly I have no idea what the changed structure looked like by the end of the cold war, im not doubting that it had westernized, although I see the reform of the banner armies as an attempt to modernize the military in much the same way.
In all honesty, the various Banners are described in Uprising to be more like a Military District, the local HQ for any troops operating there. There might be units assigned to that area as their home station, as well as other units temporarily assigned to work there but whose home station is in another Banner.
I think with almost keeping with the Yin Yang theme, the Black Banner could be the Army under the control of the Judicial branch and the Emperor. So that would be the ISS and possibly more. Black also being the "king of colors" it makes sense being attached to the Emperor.
I'd be really doubtful there'd be a Banner under direct Imperial control... the Banners are State Armies, under the Ministry of State Defense, which is entirely an organ of the Party. The Emperor, whose power the Party is motivated to keep well in check, already controls a significant armed force of their own in the form of the ISS, and it has fingers into the Ministry pie due to its role as military police and control of the Wu Ming penal units. That is probably at the limit of what the Party can permit, a Banner force with lots of boots to put on the ground to hold battle lines and territories gives an Emperor too much power to start thinking maybe he can step outside his current role of Supreme-Court-in-Dragon-Robes and reach for true rulership not just judicial authority.
Well, CB has already gone off the traditional banner colors. The traditional banner colors were Yellow, White, Red, and Blue, and then Bordered Yellow, Bordered White, Bordered Red, and Bordered Blue. Non-bordered banners were rectangular, while bordered banners were square and then came to a point. I doubt that a hypothetical Black Banner is under the control of the Emperor, since the Emperor already has the Imperial Service. Black also isn't technically the Imperial color. Black is the color of Xuanwu the 'Dark Lord of the North' (the Black Tortoise). Yellow is the color of the Center (which is a compass direction in Chinese 5-element theory), White the West, Red the South, and Blue the East. Black would actually work well for the Banner of Human Edge, as in the Black of Space. I mean, Paradiso the Green Hell got the Green Banner(s), icy Svalarheima got the White Banner, and the red sands of Mars got the Red Banner, so I'm leaning towards the "Banner Color as predominant local color" idea. Earth got the Yellow Banner because it's the old Center, and the soil of the Beijing area is yellowish. It's possible that there are two banners in the Yu Jing system, one for each planet, but that would lessen the likelihood of the 'Banner as area command' idea.
The existence of a '2nd Green Banner Army' is mentioned in the Uprising timeline, but only once, and in accounts of operations after that they just use 'Green Banner'. I think if anywhere can justify two Banners its Paradiso, which has long been heavily contested, the 'meatgrinder' of the NeoColonial Wars and now the front line in the battle vs. the Combined Army, and has two Yu Jing provinces on separate continents... but since all that is based on expanding out from a two letters and a number, just as easily could be a typo and there's only one Green Banner.
