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Thinking About Geists

Discussion in 'Modiphius Entertainment' started by AdmiralJCJF, May 8, 2018.

  1. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    There's an image making its way around Facebook at the moment, which is a screen capture of a comment someone made on Twitter. The original comment is a description of the realisation that they are the only person who knows "themselves", the person in their own head. That everyone who meets them has a different image of who they are and nobody will ever know the "real person" because nobody ever can.

    That got me thinking about Mass Effect Andromeda (which I am finishing now, having started LONG after all the patches which made it playable), which I've actually enjoyed despite its flaws. One of the key elements of that game is the AI "SAM" who can experience everything the "Ryder" character controlled by the player experiences (see, hear, feel and think). This AI, or anything like it which has similar access to the "inner world" of an individual would actually get to know the "real person" in a way other humans never could.

    This line of thinking led me to Infinity and the Geists which most of our PCs (and most of the Human Sphere) take foregranted. Especially for those characters with sense capture technology, retinal implants or neural comlogs (which seem relative common) but also everyone with a Geist to some extent, there really is an AI (limited, but still) which also shares the experiences of the character and knows them in many ways better than any human can.

    The significance of Geists was really highlighted by this idea, and I'm still thinking through all the implications.

    So I just wanted to share the thought, and see what kind of conversation it might start.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    One of the things I'm curious about is how important any Geist is compared to your Geist. How fungible are they? This comes out of our conversation about robust fake IDs.

    Equally a character operating without their usual Geist is an interesting idea. Already we see people who can't remember phone numbers, can't navigate unaided or recall basic information. It'd be similar to a character losing one of their senses.

    I've started reading Nick Hathaway's Gnomon and there's a secondary character with a non-standard mental system. This is flagged on her 'social cloud' equivalent so the main character knows how to interact with her. I'd expect this to be ubiquitous in the human sphere and facilitated in part by Geists.

    Other important considerations: what hardware is the Geist running on? Where is the Geist backed-up? What is this process and what initiates their reactivation?

    I assume most Geists run on a local instance on the owners commlog: frying the commlog effectively kills the Geist until it can respawn.

    I assume Nomads run various secure back-up options on Arachne (the Observance almost certainly runs one for the faithful); but most other people are stuck using commercial infrastructure on MayaNet. I'd expect that militaries, police and corporations may well offer secure back-up servers as a way of limiting their employees exposure.
     
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  3. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Yeah, you'd certainly get people who couldn't even remember a lot of the people they know, or basic information about them, because they are so used to being prompted by their Geist. And I'd argue that the unique nature of most Geists is going to make "off the shelf" or quickly modified "fake profile" Geists detectable (probably by Analysis or Hacking tests, but maybe also Psychology depending on the nature of the interaction).

    That sounds fascinating, and does indeed sound like exactly the kind of thing we'd see in the Infinity universe with Geists assisting with our digital lives.

    Generally speaking we know that the basic answer is "the Comlog" but I'd argue that the existence of "home networks" with hard backup potential and cloud backup operations are both clearly implied by the setting material we've got. So getting your Geist back up is likely to be uncomplicated as long as you have Maya access, or can get home.

    Which is likely to cause issues given the comparative lack of Arachne access and the lower "speeds" caused by the security protocols which Arachne uses. And while Maya based systems in other local contexts won't have that specific problem, their availability may also be a challenge under certain circumstances.
     
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  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Security is usually a trade off between cost, usability and protection.

    And I don't know about you, but I'm not OK with Aleph having access to where I store my Geist, so I'd be willing to trade off usability for protection #justNomadthings

    And yeah, I imagine it's not an issue for Joe Bloggs: his kid fries his commlog in the microwave and he buys another one and uploads his Geist to it right there in the store. But for PCs or NPCs it's an exploitable path (hacking into a nemesis' house and corrupting his back-up Geist and then separately forcing him to restore from backup would allow you to indirectly infiltrate a compromised system into a secure location with probably a lower chance of detection than a direct attack on the active Geist).
     
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  5. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing Political Work Department

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    Some interesting questions Geists raise concern how well their intimate relationship with the user can be exploited... you've likely grown up with your Geist, it is adapted and specialized to your thinking, it knows your wishes before you know them yourself.

    Let's say you are a Speculo or a Fiday, and you need to impersonate me to accomplish your mission. Would my Geist be the entity best able to detect that you were not me, since it knows my thinking so well? Would someone planning that impersonation need to account for destroying and replacing a Geist to ensure their cover was maintained? Even deeper, would capturing my Geist, or a copy of its backup, allow you to decode my thinking and mannerisms to an incredible degree, perfecting your impersonation?
     
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  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Yeah, I'd expect these kind of shenanigans. And even encourage them (I'm a Shadowrun player and ST and this is exactly in my wheelhouse for those games).

    Yeah, I dare say that there are issues with duplicating Geists for this reason and it's the kind of thing which could give away a low quality "copy".

    The latter, certainly. And given the special ability of the Speculo to "run" a second cube and thus totally embody the person it's going to be less of an issue for them. But for Fiday? Yeah, this is 100% going to be a consideration.
     
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  7. Yasashii Fuyu

    Yasashii Fuyu Well-Known Member

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    Well since the Geist doesn't exactly read your mind I wouldn't say he would "know your true self" either, though it might be the closest to it around. That depends however on how intelligent those Geists really are....if they are just a glorified Siri with more functionality and more autonomy (as in: A Program which only does what you want it to do/allow it to do) people might not use it much different than a smart phone nowadays, in that it reminds you of important dates, makes it easier to buy/book/prepare stuff and whatnot...

    If it is however almost like a true "person" or part of your being, that lives in your world (and mostly only your world?) and is with you ever since you could remember (which seems to be the case?) then these things become way more interesting.

    I also wonder how other humans react to other people's geists....do you care if a Geist contacts you about something? Would you be interested in chatting with someone elses Geist about "the weather"? Or are they just "That person's slave thingy" which you don't give a fuck about unless you need something from it or it needs to tell you something? Like would you be "friends" with someone elses Geist (even though you might not like the person itself? Or the other way around) , share jokes with them and stuff like that? Do Geists even joke on their own? Do Geists actually have wishes and if so, do people care about them?

    But I guess the answer to that as with in all things is "It depends"....
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Some people consider Geists to be alive. Others will consider Geists to be tools. Most probably sit somewhere in between / don't think about it too much.

    Sending a Geist to a meeting rather than attending yourself is kind of like sending your assistant: it says that whatever you're doing is more important than the meeting. How that's interpreted will depend on context.

    Using a Geist as a cut out to attend a meeting sends the message that you don't trust your interlocutory. Again, how that's interpreted will depend on context.
     
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  9. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    I intrude in this very interesting conversation about Geists with pointing out one of My personal "Pet Peeves" about Infinity R.P.G. by Modiphius (ALL IN ALL an excellent Game Rules System, but NOT 100% Perfect as there are some "Glaring Flaws"). . .

    There are THREE different instances in the Randomic paths of the Character Creation when Your Geist start to spontaneously EVOLVE into an "Artificial Intelligence Spore" and grow a Transhuman Consciousness. . .

    As for the "Sole A.I. Bill" then IMMEDIATLY "Big Sister A.L.E.P.H." clamps down and EITHER "Erase & Replace" the budding "Virtual Consciousness" with one "Doppleganger Copy" from Herself, OR simply "Subsume" the "Little Sprout" in its "Collective Aspects Hive-Mind". . .

    As a "Compensation" for the serious loss of a "Childhood Companion" that is informed of Your feeling & personal tastes they offer You the possibility to become an Agent of A.L.E.P.H. as Your "Personal Geist" has rather become the "Voice in Your Head" of the "Humanity Overseer". . .

    While for a Charater that is a Pan-Oceanian, Yu-Jing or rich, mundane Haqqislamite this could be quite an interesting "Early Path" to Transhuman Agent Status, if You are a Nomad or an Ariadna this is the same as HIGH TREASON, forcing Your Character to become EITHER a "Quisling Betrayer" and "5th Column Mole" OR relinquish something that is an INTEGRAL IMPORTANT part of Your Character. . .

    And even if one substitutes "Stavka Ariadnan Unexistant Support A.I." or one of the "Black-Hand Nomads Illegal A.I." of the Arachne-Net is still a sort of "Personality Rape". . . . .

    I know that could be kinky and weird but is EXACTLY as:

    I am quite fond of shooting Photos and Videos of Myself and My Sexual Partners; in fact Sexting Medias for distant Paramours is an integral part of My "Seduction Attempts" with potential, prospective partners. . .

    I also have a rather LARGE cache of these Videos and Photos and I hide them AWAY from the Web Computer, in an External Drive phisically separated from the Net. . .

    But I'm NOT a Creepy Maniac and keep ONLY the "Sex Media" of a Partner that was consensual in "Keeping Mementos" for fond memories of a passed bout, and CANCELLED outright what some other said "Please Erase Everything of Us". . .

    Also when I have shown some of these to ANOTHER Potential Partener (and NOT in web but on a Video Screen when in "Intimate Settings") I have used Photoshop to "Blur" Faces, Birthmarks and Tattoos and left JUST myself immediatly recognized!!

    I know that one of My Ex, that was quite in Bondage and Kinky Sex, is STILL showing , in PRIVATE settings, My Photos with Her to other Persons that are in Her same kind of Fetish. . .

    I personally do not mind and did not asked to be "Unrecognizable" because at Heart, I'm quite a vainglorious exhibitionist; in fact, a couple of Her thrists (a Dominator Male AND a Submissive Lady) separately expressed interest in knowing Me after they saw that kinky stuff. . .

    I implicitly have good faith in the FEW persons that I entrusted with that Stuff (NEVER left a Copy with "One Night Stands") and I treat them at the same courtesy. . .

    But I KNOW persons that made a serious error to confide in the WRONG Person and that had their Sex Stuff "Spoilered" around the Web and ruining their Love Life and potentially even Career (I do not mind; much of My Graphic Freelance Stuff is LINKED to Adult Photo Media and Adult Webcomics, it will be a sort of "Free Publicity Stunt" for Me !!!). . .

    . . . . .

    My Personal Choices (that I'm SURE someone will find Rather QUESTIONABLE !!) what is going to be relevant with the OP is:

    Imagine that a "Federal Agency" will arrive, confiscate ALL of MY PERSONAL STUFF and say something along the lines of:

    "Sorry, Now Your Kinky Stuff will be part of a Federal Funded Research on the Sexual Deviances of Forty-Years Old Italian Bisexual Males; You have NO MORE LEGAL RIGHT on them, but if You still want to "Star" in them, there is a nice spot for a "Performer" for Our Labs. . .!!!!!"

    Or if the example above is a little too "Distastefully Personal" then imagine:

    You have raised from Birth and YOUR infancy a particualrly smart and long-lived Breed of Big Dog. . .

    Frome when it was a Puppy You raised Him / Her / It and cared deeply; at the same time the "Deep Bond" with that Animal Companion allow the rather very intelligent creature to feel Your distress, help assuage emotive burdens, keep You stable and firm in an uncaring world that seems to have gone crazy and so on. . .

    And then. . .

    The F.B.I. or A.T.A.C. arrives and seizes Your "Soul Mate" saying that is a VERY RARE Specimen that could sniff some weird exotic Drug or Advanced Explosive Material and You have TWO choices:

    1°) Say goodbye to a "Lifelong Companion" and see the creature carried away to be Trained by a totally foreigner; in partial compensation they give You a nice lobotomized Chihuahua. . .

    2°) ALSO YOU is drafted by the Feds and start to train ALONG Your "Pal Buddy" to become an effective K9 Unit for High Risks Operations. . . . .!!!
     
  10. Yasashii Fuyu

    Yasashii Fuyu Well-Known Member

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    Interesting point of view here, I think I'd give the whole thing a bit of a more positive spin.

    To me the Geist would seem more like a "Butler" our "Maid" that you get at some age. At first it's distant and you don't really know much about it, but it still does whatever you ask it to and follows your commands. As you grow older so does your connection to your "Butler" grow, it knows way more about you by now, knows your tastes, might know what your girlfriend would like for her birthday and might even order it for her in your name because it knows you'd have forgotten it otherwise, and so on....but all throughout this time, it's still your "Butler" and forced to do what you want it to do. Even though it might "boost" you in some way like a good Butler might "give you a talk" when he sees you are struggling.

    Then one day your Butler informs you that it now has it's own free will, and just so happens to be Batman as well...(the later part is optional :-P)....and soon afterwards the Government (who also happens to be Justice League) comes, informs you that your now "free willed" Butler no longer can be your Butler because you don't pay it and that'd totally be slavery....but tells you that they have a special place for people like him where he can thrive to his fullest potential. Should your Butler be Batman they also tell you that he'll now join their justice League, and that, since you happened to have raised such a fine Super Hero Butler, you might be useful and are allowed to join in as well should you want to...

    Question is....do you feel "raped" because the "Butler" you've known ever since you where a child now has a chance to become something "better" than your "Butler"? Or do you wish him the best and wave goodbye? Or do you stick by Batman's side as his new sidekick? :-P

    But, I'm a pro Aleph Hyperpower type in mind, so obviously my view of this would be way positiver than most others I guess :-P

    @stevenart74 Kinky! Now you've damaged my maidens heart O.O ;-P
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Re: the your Geist gets subsumed into Aleph. There’s a couple of things in the Rules that reveals the core games roots as a set up for an 0-12 campaign: this is one. I expect those to be replaced in the Nomad random event table.

    I wouldn’t actually be surprised if LAI is a playable character type in the Nomad sourcebook (related, I’m very much looking forward to the Hollowmen fluff dropping to discover how they deal with sheut shredding / resurrection dysmorphic disorder).

    And the allusion I prefer is that your childhood friend was just revealed as the snake from the Garden of Eden. Sin-eater seems like a good life choice at that point. But then, I am a loyal child of the Observance.
     
    #11 inane.imp, May 8, 2018
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
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  12. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose The Wrecking Belles

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    Excellent topic! And really, the big question is: How often does it happen? Because I see the Geist more like our current Smartphones but with an attitude. They store information, do research for us, locate places and people, everything a Mobile with a good Data Plan, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth can do. So to me it would feel more like The Govenrment telling me they have to confiscate my Samsung model and replace it with a brand new Iphone. And I'm sorry, that's where I draw the line in the sand and start my own Uprising, because NO ONE ios going to force me to use an I-Anything**df{-.ge5rnje****

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Well, that depends.

    If you have a Neural Comlog then your Geist basically CAN read your mind.

    This really comes down to how good your personal Geist is. I mean, Intelligence 12 is high by the standards of the game and so is Personality 12. It's quite possible that a Geist might be interesting enough to talk to (and more so than their owner) that they would be worth conversing with independently.

    Well, they aren't full AI (barring certain unusual events) so they won't interact beyond what they are encouraged to.

    But, again, it depends mostly on your Geist build.

    This is a good analysis, and a good point. Depending on your relationship sending your Geist might be perfectly normal, or a deadly insult.

    Well, to be fair, the main rulebook is trying to be generic and we'll see more detailed faction based Lifepath options when the appropriate books are available. You are right to note that accepting such an event would be more likely from a PanO/Yu Jing/O-12/ALEPH character than others.

    But you don't have to accept it, it could be a defining feature which drives your character to change faction!

    Yeah, I think it's probably less hyperbole laden for most people who experience it.

    But the idea that LAIs develop into AI often enough for it to be a noted event is interesting... and provides scope for discussion of what independent life worth protecting is.

    Indeed, I'd expect to see a LOT more stuff along these lines when we get the Nomad faction book.

    Well... often enough for it to appear in a generic events table!

    :-P
     
  14. MrMorphine482

    MrMorphine482 Well-Known Member

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    Friday and JARVIS for Tony Stark. That's a geist as far as I can tell.
     
  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    A very good one, but yes.
     
  16. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Well, isn't every ALEPH Aspect or Recreation a LAI?

    It is still up to debate if you can tell a thought from neural activity. Same goes for "having all sensual input."
    Because every input is 'weighted' with/by every previous experience. And how clear or important any memory is for a person is something that is hard to judge from 'outside'. Of course, an 'old friend' is better with this than a complete stranger, but it is hard nevertheless.

    And even if you know what neuronal activation pattern is caused by, let's say a blue sky, then you still can't tell how it feels to see it, and not even if any other person experiences 'blue' in the same way as you do.
     
  17. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Indeed.

    While that might be true IRL, it's not in the Infinity universe.

    The existence of the "Full Sensorium Maya Integration", and even the operation of Neural Comlogs themselves, but certainly much of the setting material on Maya broadcasting confirms that you can derive thoughts from neural activity in the Infinity universe.

    I'd go so far as to argue that the operation of Cubes actually demands it.
     
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