Are you saying to ignore the authority that palanka had when he posted all his statements due to the age of his posts?
Not the age, but that it never made it into the FAQ, and that no explanation was given for why the written rules were being overridden.
While i agree with this point, most people put rule answer validity order is: Palanka Ijw Rules consensus So telling people to ignore the highest order as it hasnt been added to the faq is dangerous as many of your posts and even group consensus has not been added.
I agree that palanka doesnt post for infinity anymore. But does this mean that palanka's posts whose rules that have remained unchanged are no longer valid?
Aye, I tend to think it's best all round if we maintain the validity of Palanka rulings unless something of equal or higher authority explicitly contradicts them later. Most of the things he ruled on were disagreements where one side of the argument thought he was changing RAW from what it should be while the other side felt he was ruling in favour of it. Once we start going down that rabbit hole of saying "Palanka ruled against RAW so ignore it" we very quickly risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater and being left with no usable rulings from him, which I think is a worse landscape overall.
Zero KHD vs EVO. Dropping Camo and Stealth forces the EVO to declare their ARO (Brainblast) in response to the Zero's first short skill rather than delay and respond to the Zero's second short skill (with Breakwater). Baiting out HD. Zero KHD drops Camo and Stealth and Moves into a enemy's Repeaters ZOC. If there is a HD KHD on the board it must reveal now and declare an ARO, if it doesn't the KHD is free to attack their target unmolested. If the KHD hadn't dropped Camo the HD KHD wouldn't get an ARO until after the second short skill and would fry the Zero's brains on a Normal roll. There's more, they're a common point of discussion. But they mostly follow that pattern: situations where its advantageous for you to force your opponent to declare their ARO in response to your first short skill.
is that any different than a non-camo non-stealth KHD ? If it is not different then I see no problem that a model which pays for the advantage of stealth and camo can opt to not use them (as they are optional) and be just the same as a non-stealth non-camo model for that Order.
I see, I need to see and check if the states (camouflage, TO Camouflage and Hidden deployment) are tied in with the skills that grant them. Logically at the start of the order the model can state what level of CH they wish to use and drop it to mimetism, that should cancel the states since the skill does not grant access to the states, but it is not written on state cancellation on first read.
They still get Surprise Shot. But you trade your opponent getting full Open information about the trooper with removing their ability to delay their ARO. It seems fair to me. The biggest issue is that it makes Breakwater basically useless on HD+s and EVOs. Welcome to the conversation.
Yes. This does exacerbate it though. But I agree, that should be resolved for its own sake and separately to this.
That has more to do with Breakwater having a requirement built into it that makes it almost unusable. Otherwise you put Stealth in a situation where it's often a *disadvantage*.
If you read the threads ive linked youll see that conversation and line of thinking played out. Essentially ijw said that then palanka said something mechanically different
We're using this a lot to deny delay AROs against a Camo Marker who wants to force a ZOC ARO or another Token to reveal before he decides to shoot back/hack/push a button. RAW you simply turn off Camo for Mimetism and turn off Stealth. The wording for Surprise Shot/Attack allows you to still get the Mod for this Order. Despite turning off Camo, you still have the Skill and were activated in a Marker State, note the Requirements in blue. SURPRISE SHOT L1 SHORT SKILL BS Attack, Optional. REQUIREMENTS In addition to Surprise Shot, the user must be able to use one of the Special Skills CH: Camouflage, CH: Limited Camouflage, CH: TO Camouflage, Impersonation, any Special Skill, piece of Equipment or state that allows its user to play in a Marker state, or any other that explicitly allows its user to make Surprise Shots. The user of this Special Skill must be in a Marker state (Camouflaged, TO, Impersonation-1...) or in the Hidden Deployment state at the time when he receives an Order and activates. This finds a lot of application against TO in Hidden Deployment revealing as a Marker to delay in ARO. The other example is Camo CC troops who want to trigger a Change Facing ZOC ARO so they can move into BtB around a corner vs a single model and start the next Order Engaged. Should also be applicable for Holoecho and Impersonation. CH: LEVEL 2. CAMOUFLAGE CH: LEVEL 2. CAMOUFLAGE AUTOMATIC SKILL Optional, NFB, Fire-Sensitive. REQUIREMENTS EFFECTS During the Deployment Phase, allows the user to deploy in the Camouflaged state. During the game, allows the user to be in the Camouflaged state. Around here we've also taken that part as "if you turn of Camo your Camouflaged goes poof". With Camouflage off, you shouldn't be allowed to maintain the State. You are however right that this isn't covered by the cancellation conditions, although that is the case for every Optional Skill I did a quick check on. Funny enough Mimetism is Obligatory, but I am pretty sure troops with Camo levels are allowed to use the higher levels regardless.
It doesn't work for Cybermask. Because Cybermask is Supportware and isn't Optional. You can't even get around it by attempting to 'turn on ODD", because ODD isn't Optional so you can't choose to turn it on as per Palanka's ruling (which is why you can't elect to get ODD back and drop your White Noise zone if your Custodier gets shot at).
Rules as written, this will do nothing as it's only the Camouflage Skill that would be turned off, not the separate Camouflaged State.
