Y'all seem willfully ignorant about the fact the uprising started with a number of unexpected bombings of what we're probably where ISS units and their support and or family were posted. People become quite irrational when other people, who they already don't like bomb your friends and Family. This is something which is hinted at repeatedly and is probably a big part of why sun tzes advice fell on deaf ears. Some posters also makes some fantastical and idealistic assumptions at how good military police are at dealing with an insurrection given that history has shown time and again people overreact (despite the logical thing to do is show restraint) to acts of revolt and insurrection. It feels more personal and revenge is what's the first desire. Can we tone down the hyperbole of "genocide" and ethnic cleansing. If your main argument of why you're right is emotional or trying to use very charged language, it's not a very good argument. I don't think considering everyone from a single ethnicity as a threat unreasonable when attacks are being launched from civilian positions, and the people who bombed your friends and family are hiding amongst that group. Is it logically the best course of action that the yuanduan are taking? No. Is it unrealistic and stupid? Based on our own history, also no.
And we are expected to take ISS as a very competent police force. That gets its offices blown up from under their own feet.
@Alphz While in isolation I could see the argument, I don't think that is going to hold up... all you're doing is shifting the debate from 'Uprising is bad because the counter-insurgency forces are foolishly brutal' to 'Uprising is bad because the counter-insurgency forces are flagrantly incompetent'. If they were competent and then brutal, I think you'd have standing, since that is for sure how they're portrayed in the setting material.
There is nothing in the fluff that indicates the Party had a problem with what was going on. Considering that they've shown a habit of assassinating Emperors who fucked up we know there's tacit approval of what's going on. So, if there were elements of Yu Jing that weren't all-in on Japanese ethnic cleansing, they would be shown in the fluff. They weren't, so it didn't happen. The alternative would be "Gutier did some bad writing" and that's a divide by zero error for you.
No, because that's what's depicted in the fluff. I know it makes it inconvenient if you're trying to cheerlead the quality of the work, but... not my problem.
This is bad storytelling, because if it's true it means all of the actors and factions that players care about *don't matter.* The real protagonists of the story are O-12, because they have the power to crush anyone if they want. Moreover, don't expect the players to care about anything that happened in the fluff before the wargame's start date.
I mean what military or police force never has losses or set backs? The navy seals are one of the most elite units in the world and they still have their helicopters shut down.
You're misinterpreting what was said. Nobody said that the Imperial Service should never have setbacks, only that they became much less competent whenever the JSA was involved, unrealistically so.
I want to be a YJ player because I love the units and minis, but you are all making me want to be an anything else player just so I can go to my faction forum and not have to listen to self-righteous assholes incessantly bitching because they've convinced themselves the sky is falling, and that it gives them permission to be absolutely condescending assholes to literally anyone who disagrees with them. The way certain posters are talking to and about those who disagree is insulting, condescending, and quite frankly, really immature. Just because you're in the middle of an upset circle-jerk doesn't make you A: correct, or B: in the right when you go off demeaning people and writing off their ideas. At some point, you pass from 'upset for good reasons' to 'insufferable jackass who won't stop ranting and is increasingly disconnected from the reality of the situation' and at that point, it's probably good to go take a shower and play a video game or paint some minis or whatever. Just clear your head, remember it's a game, the sky isn't falling, and shit isn't that bad and there are other points of view if you'd just listen to them. At this point you WANT to be right, so you want YJ to be evil, you want ISS to suck, and you want CB to fail because it became personal, and you need to get some space and get your objectivity back, because as it stands, there are several people who have been posting on the faction forum that are actively dissuading new players, and ensuring nobody else has any interest in seeing YJ rebound or get sympathy.
And we've got the quote from the first mission where it talks about how the Yuandun division made no distinction between soldier and civilian. People have brought this fluff up before; you can't have missed it. I guess you're going to ignore this bit, too, since it makes it harder to tell everyone they have no basis to comment on the lack of sophistication in the narrative.
I really, really don't want to be right. I'd really, really like to hear that this fluff was written by an incompetent intern or something because Gutier was busy with the rpg and 9001 other things, and shortly we're going to get a higher-quality narrative when he or whoever takes the reins back over. I just don't think that it's worth putting my head in the sand over, and I don't believe in lying about how good the narrative and presentation of Uprising/Treason has been for the sake of civility. If new players are being dissuaded, then maybe that's a good thing, as we're not sugar-coating things for them, and if they don't like what people are bringing up then perhaps they wouldn't have enjoyed things once they smoke had cleared anyway.
See the quote I posted. Or is your version of Treason mysteriously missing that passage, and any other that I might use to justify my point? Oh wait, I forgot, you are working from the premise of "CB is perfect and can do no wrong, no matter the evidence to the contrary" and thus pretend that any passage that goes against your position doesn't exist.
Yeh, we're all aware of the fluff. But again, please define again where that indicates genocide that doesn't involve a very imaginative definition of pacify. Oh it's got quotation on it so it must mean killing every single living person systematically? It might mean that, but we don't know. Given the fact there is a Japanese region currently under martial law means yu Jing has not yet undertaken ethnic cleansing. That's the key point where people are not upset are having a different opinion. It's a bad situation but the current conclusions you are coming to require extrapolation. I'm not extrapolating and right now what's happened is brutal oppression of a rebellion under what is basically open war between two sides of a single faction. But it's not genocide or "cleansing". Now I don't think that's off the table based on where the fluff is going, but let's not jump the gun until there are further implications. The story is still evolving here. We don't have the whole picture.
The gratuitous use of quotes in that context means you should use a very imaginative definition of those words. Either you're less familiar with English than you appear or you're being willfully ignorant. There's also the passage from the 1st mission where it's stated that the Yuandun division was making no distinction between military and civilian during a "massacre." Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me - the removal of everyone of a given ethnicity from a given territory. Nope, Uprising is a wrap and Treason and the Yuandun division fluff are fairly self-contained. I'm also fairly certain that you wouldn't be saying this if the fluff was more well-received; this lack of even-handedness means that one can assume that your positions shouldn't be taken seriously.
Oh its my clear lack of English fluency that means I can't read between the lines in that quote that clearly says "genocide"? Sorry, if thats the best you can muster without actually, again, demonstrating your vast knowledge of the English language in actually explaining what I seem to have clearly missed, then your argument falls flat. I'm not arguing that you absolutely can't reach that conclusion. But it relies on making some assumptions. Its (the quote) intentionally vague. Dude, you even use the right word in your own description: "massacre". A single act does not make a genocide. Which EDIT: involves the intent to destroy the existence of a group or ethnicity. That massacre is bad enough, but trying to exaggerate it to be genocide to try discredit people who disagree with you only discredits your own argument. Rather than make strong arguments based on some pretty compelling evidence, the argument looks more like an attempt to guilt people who might have a differing opinion by assigning an untenable position to them ("Oh you think Yu Jing (or the fluff about them) isn't bad, then you must endorse genocide"). Of course no-one endorses genocide or ethnic cleansing. Massacre of civilians is bad, but that kind of overreach given the context can be understood. And we can see how the writer doesn't glorify it, but paints a realistic picture of how this might play out. People are pretty fucking terrible during war. ITS Season 9: TREASON is still going. Global campaign which has been confirmed to include at least one of the uprising locations is coming. There might not be anything more about the Yuandun, but I doubt that given that Bostria mentioned the CBLs in connection with said campaign. So is uprising a wrap? It didn't seem it in the book. The first phase is over. But the book even ends with Yu Jing talking about crippling JSA's ability to get resources to build a navy, which ties into Kurage, a confirmed location in the campaign. I think the uprising is far from over. Oh and throw in a comment about me being disingenuous for good measure. Nice.
Wow, the time between an obvious genocide and the emergence of revisionist historians has really shortened in the modern era.
This kind of comment is what I was referring to previously. This post is not helpful, productive, accurate, or even well within the grounds of even basic conversation. You've gone straight to strawman without passing go, and no, you do not get 200$. Take a break, you clearly need one.
