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The future of Yu Jing

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Greysturm, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Maybe? His unit was established by the Emperor. He basically has Imperial sanction.
     
  2. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    So then the plan is "wait and see"... this time on "...There might be a war crimes tribunal and extensive internal ethnic reconciliation within Yu Jing!".

    Here is an idea. The last, of many, times we were told to wait and see we got special lists for ethnic cleansing death squads. So I'm pretty leery about the wait and see excuse for CBs actions at this point.

    And if you ad PsychoticStorms recent passing claim that this is all already written well into the future ahead of time in unalterable stone then waiting and seeing looks even worse.

    But most of all we don't have to wait and see, we have already seen. This is already in the game it is already a big inexcusable mess. I'm more than happy already awaiting the never ever when the warcriminals of the real world finally face justice. I don't think a game should ever have placed itself in a position of "wait and see your faction will be technically legally exonerated of mass murder of civilians due to their ethnicity one day!". That shouldn't have happened in the first place, the wait and see excuse isn't just weak in it's own right at this point the very fact it is required at all is inexcusable.
     
  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The US also arrested the people doing the killing in My Lai, prosecuted most.

    The US arrested the people doing shit at Abu Ghraib. And in Afghanistan.

    You don't need to suffer a total defeat to let the guy who beat you clean up your messes. You can do it yourself.



    Very much this.

    Why the fuck did we
    ever get to the point where YJ was needing to deal with war crimes Tribunals?
     
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  4. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    You guys are losing the plot and just shouting for the sake of shouting at this point.

    If shouting on the forums isn't making you feel better, maybe it's time to try something else. Like going for a walk
     
  5. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    [​IMG]

    So the CIA isn't American? The KGB wasn't Soviet? The Stasi weren't East German? MI6 isn't British?

    Institutions like those do not function in a vacuum from the state. They are apart of the state structure and function as a tool for the state. Their actions reflect back on the states they serve. ISS is a state sanctioned institution for YJ. It's actions will reflect on YJ as a whole. Does the ISS represent all of YJ? Of course not. However, ISS does paint the current state of YJ because that's the narrow perspective we've gotten.

    Now the future of YJ

    - Can we get a YJ perspective, please?

    - Show that YJ can kick some teeth in. Remember that small JSA fleet? Well... seems the CA saw it as an easy target (isn't it nice to have a boogey man to blame it on). Regaining some lost territory (not through force but through the sleezy backdoor stuff YJ is good at). Or something for them to show why their number 2. As I've said they really do get beat up a lot without doing any of the beating themselves.
     
  6. Ten Thousand Arrows

    Ten Thousand Arrows Imperial Sage

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    With condescending comments like that, some people might just walk away from this game.
     
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  7. Antares

    Antares Well-Known Member

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    I don't quite agree with people calling YJ racist and "nazi". Everything we know of YJ clearly depicts them as pretty much the opposite. It's a state made of multiple ethnicities who bare equal rights, and the japanese would have been equal too if they hadn't been too proud to fit in (and if it hadn't been for the Tatenokai terrorist bombings). Also we know that a sweeping punishment is common in YJ and part of their philosophy. They made the japanese second class citizens to give them the incentive to hate the ones that are responsible for their misery (the tatenokai). This didn't work , but they obviously (at least to me) don't hate them for their race. Even more so what I read from the fluff is that the Japanese people hate the chinese more than the other way around -> they started the uprising and the killing when killing wasn't necessary before from the YJ point of view. Another example are the triads, where it worked well. When the ISS was formed the state empire found itself in a crisis that threatened the stability of the state, so they hunted down triad members and did that without mercy until the triads gave in. So I don't think they are seeing all Japanese as enemies because they hate japanese as a race. But in this crisis any japanese person can be seen as part of the criminal organisation that the insurgents are and therefore they are enemies of the state until they give in or are destroyed.

    Keep in mind I'm not defending them killing unarmed innocents, that is just plain ugly and I just can't understand why we are having a narrative event about this :(
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Possibly because CB disagrees with what you said here:

     
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  9. Antares

    Antares Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. Maybe not. Either way I will be glad when this is over.
     
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that combating organized crime is different** from combating an organized uprising. You cannot use the same tactics.

    In those places where Organized Crime is successful (I'm not talking neighborhood street gangs, here), it's because the Organized Crime is replacing some function of the Government that has failed outright. The typical one is actually law/contract enforcement! Protection rackets are taxes. In no small number of places, government and organized crime have an agreement (spoken, not written) to keep citizens that aren't in the criminal organization the hell out of the line of fire between warring criminal organizations. And it's when the criminal organizations don't do that, that the government comes in with all the jackboots.

    An Uprising is an attempt to replace the entire government, regardless of whether it's failing or not.

    ** I do not assign a value to "different", it is neither positive nor negative. All it means is "not the same".
     
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  11. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Can't wait to hear that. Hey how come you're selling all those minis? Well I'm getting out of the game, someone on the internet made condescending comments.
     
  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    "Hey, how come you're selling all your minis? Holy shit, there's some old stuff in here!"

    "Well, the guys writing the fluff turned the faction I play from the Weimar Republic into Nazi Germany. So I'm done, even though I've been collecting and playing this game for it's entire life and a third of mine."

    [ edit in bold+Italics ]
     
    #292 Section9, Apr 28, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
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  13. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    Last time I was part of an active war gaming community there were people who would sell out of a franchise because it was Wednesday.

    If you don't think telling people that ethnic cleansing is awesome fun background fluff on the internet isn't costing CB at least some portion of its customer base I can't imagine what sort of war gaming communities you apparently are part of.
     
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  14. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    Nah, the real reason would be because the company sundered my faction, taking away units I started the game with, over half our characters, removing our best engineer, and removing our best CC dominance pieces in a faction where everything seems to pay a bloody CC tax. In exchange we got jack squat.

    And oh yeah, the sole remaining sub faction starts carrying idiot ball and drags the faction's name through the mud by heavily indulging in war crimes.

    Then a few weeks later, they disable one of the three remaining special characters (counting Lunah) for reasons.

    And most recently, the company doubles down on the war crimes aspect by highlighting the most extreme perpetrators. Also a new narrative event where somehow everyone shows up on the capital's doorstep. So we get to be the punching bag again.

    No, those condescending words wouldn't be the reason people leave. Those would merely be the wakeup call that this situation isn't worth sticking around for.
     
    #294 banthafodder, Apr 28, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
  15. Varsovian

    Varsovian Well-Known Member

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    I'd love to share your optimism here, but I really can't say that I found any indication of which interpretation of Uprising events is the correct one. I checked the book again and I still can't find any mention of YJ persecuting the war criminals in any way. I'm really curious - you keep saying that the fluff mentions trials and punishments, but... where are they mentioned, exactly? The only mention of the ISS members being punished is the chapter that describes the Kuraimori occupation - and even there, it's actually mentioned to show that most of the ISS members are *not* being punished for the human rights abuses.

    So, honestly - I really want to believe that CB intends for the Yuandun to be what you describe: a single unit of bastards. But if that's the case, I really, really am begging CB (@psychoticstorm , please do pass that along to Gutier...) to release some clarification on that matter. The state of things right now, with us really not knowing where YJ stand as a whole regarding the war crimes etc., is really troubling.

    You really think that can't happen? Personally, I'm an empathic person and the friendly, welcoming community here on the CB forums was one of things that made me pick up Infinity. And I can say that the whole controversy regarding Uprising really is making it a bit hard to enjoy the game these days. Even though I play Haqqs right now...
     
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  16. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    I ask out of actual ignorance. Is there any chance that the Yuandon is actually not what it reads like in English because a few key words got miss translated?

    You need to read the Yuandon fluff, its clear the hatred is on ethnic lines in that.

    I disagree here. Looking at waterboarding in the U.S. a small number of torture hawks were able to get state sanctioning without the knowledge of the public as a whole. Their actions did not reflect the state, or even the majority of their organizations. (There was a large number of dessentors to waterboarding within he FBI and CIA who knew it was going on).
     
  17. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    @Section9 to which I'd hope someone would reply well if the game is solid and fun I'm sure you can still play without being that but to each their own.

    @Eldritch I play this, x wing, and armada for my war games. If someone told me they were leaving for strictly fluff reasons I'd question whether they really liked the game or not. I'd try to tell them that we can still play and we don't have to keep the fluff to the forefront.

    @banthafodder someone leaving because their faction gets nerfed and loses profiles makes sense to me. Someone leaving because of the story the creators of the game are making just seems like an over reaction. I love the game system and how solid it is so I'd be able to get over a lot of stuff.

    @Varsovian if someone told me they were considering quitting the game due to what some stranger or strangers on the internet who they'll probably never meet in real life said on the forum I'd think that's taking it a bit too far. I'd probably wonder if they were happy with the game before hand or if this was finally the straw that broke the camel's back.

    If you're upset about the loss of profiles that makes a ton of sense and in my mind would be a good reason to leave. I could see myself possibly doing that based on the severity. If the ficticuous actions of a ficticuous faction that were part of a story that is in now way fully complete offend you to the point of making you outraged, sick, disgusted, offended, or make you want to quit the game I'm assuming you're either unhappy with other stuff in the game or you're virtual signaling.
     
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  18. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing Political Work Department

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    'virtue signaling' only works if there is an audience to signal, to advance your standing. The audience here is nerds playing Infinity, who else cares? People quitting are leaving the game, they aren't signaling to increase their cred with those who are staying, they're severing that relationship. Do you think people are gonna quit and then go hang out in hipster bars, striking up conversations with that alluring opener "Yeah, I totally quit playing with this specific subset of dolls and dice because I was totes offended." ?

    If you're going to toss around insults, at least be sure they make sense.
     
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  19. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    @atomicfryingpan thats because you are clearly a pure gamer. Some of us are here for the fluff and story of the game. No one here is belittling power gamers so maybe try and emphathize that other people have differnt experances of the game, instead of belittling thier position based soley on the fact you dont understand it.
     
  20. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    you win lol that quote literally made me laugh and spit out my drink lol. Maybe that was the wrong term but some of it comes off as I find x action morally reprehensible therefore I won't participate and I'm morally superior. Disclaimer* I know that no one is saying that and no one who is upset at the fluff is trying to say those of us who aren't are any less for liking it.

    @Wombat85 Idk if I'd say I'm a pure gamer or power game but I can definitely see how it looks like I am with the position I'm taking. I totally get how important the fluff and story are to people and honestly I'm a big fan of the fluff and story I think the biggest difference between myself and the others is that I'm ok with the fluff and I've always perceived the iss this way and the actions from yj make sense to me. I'd honestly not want anyone to quit the game over story decisions they'd disagree with. I also know that saying just ignore the fluff is a weak suggestion and is like saying well pretend it's a different game or just play a different faction. Plus if @Section9 quit the game I'd miss all the interesting historical and cultural facts he posts.
     
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