I'm saying the unit was created by CB for this event: it wasn't in the Human Sphere fluff, or the Paradiso fluff.
Considering how this unit did not existed before, or there was no mention to it, CB has just created it. Or retconned into being, your choice. Incidentally, all but list C of the CBL are wrongly listed, they are 6.5 SWC.
To be fair, so were the Kuge. They don't appear in any previous literature (or at least not by that name), but were behind everything all along!
Genuinely why? I don't think we are gunning down children. If part of the game was to shoot unarmed children models or round Jews and throw them into concentration camps. If that was part of the game then I could see maybe an arguement? I mean worst case scenario you're the yuanduan vs jsa. How many times in the game have you shot an unconscious model to make sure it doesn't get back up? Do you only use non lethal rounds on an opponent's warcor? Shooting a doctor or doing a coup de grace also seems morally reprehensible. Do you ever give the opponents models the chance to surrender? Any of those could be argued to be war crimes but at the very least incredibly unethical and morally abhorrent actions. We are playing make believe. It's like playing call of duty. I can't imagine anyone judging anyone for playing the game. It reminds me of the no Russian mission from modern warfare 2. I in no way condone shooting up innocents in an airport and I don't judge anyone who played the mission. It was part of the game and the narrative.
Well, the return to old ways and an emphasis on bushido is laid out in N3:HS, talking about the changes in Japanese culture after their annexation and the rise of the Tatenokai and Kempeitai. While the kuge aren't mentioned, the cultural forces they're described as directing in Uprising are laid out there in N3:HS, as are the ruthless tactics of the ISS. The operation against the JSA is simply the Golden Dagger operation on a larger scale.
Aha, and having the Tatenokai and the Kempeitai direct the Uprising would have made sorta sense. Instead these Kuge guys came out of nowhere and were behind everything and everyone.
Ruthless tactics of the ISS were there to preserve the state. There were no mention of war crimes against the state. They are blowing up whole fucking cities. The worst we had before was using cruel and unusual methods of capital punishment for criminals, and spies. If they had made this a specialized task force to hunt down the Kuge, or the Kempetai, or the Tatenokai, this would be OK. But its not. its hunting down everyone who has a Japanese last name, or Japanese ancestry. Holy crap dude! Edit: bolding for emphasis
They are. Water floodings make little distinction, and military-grade weapons free inside cities... let's say there is a reason police forces uses non-penetrating ammo unless they use snipers. They call it Kuraimori, and the JSA manifested destiny is to conquer that hell. Because YJ can't bother send the people to Japan (with a nice facture of the travel expenses) and get done with the insurgency, and somehow even the Yakuza are sold in this war effort instead of just profits. By war conventions, if you are armed, there is no "moral shield". Do note that the MEDICAL Merkava battle tank (used by Israel, in his conflict with Palestina, since you have opened the "jew door") does not sport a Red Cross, because by War Law it is a war vehicle, regardless that it has been designed as an ambulance and carries wounded, using its weapons in self defense only. Doctors carry automatic weapons. Coup de Grace has lost its moral horror thanks to Cubes and Ressurrections (surprise! It is now "destroying war gear"). Infinity is all about black ops, and the players there (the soldiers) know that there is no mercy, because they are not soldiers but spies. Because, you know, you need to be at war to apply War Law ;) (so more reason to be able to shoot that shady figure with strange gear). I don't play Call of Duty, thank you. But I know of the mission you speak of. And I think it was... well. Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Call_of_Duty:_Modern_Warfare_2 So while I won't be looking funny to YJ or JSA players because of their army choices, I certainly can look funny at Corvus Belli for this. Because if I'm in an uncharitable mood, I can think they either did this as a lazy way to get a market objective, or as a way to get more publicity. The continous avoidance of the theme makes me feel VERY uncharitable.
The Colonel's quote is: “The enemy does not show any respect for honor or rules. To protect the StateEmpire, we will do the same. We are the Emperor’s shield.” Colonel Peng Shou. Extract from the foundational harangue of the Yuándùn Division. Foundational harangue. So the unit was created apparently to do the things it's doing. That's pretty damn messed up.
@atomicfryingpan I'm not sure someone being uncomfortable with genocide is a matter of being 'trendy'... but speaking to your point about playing the bad guys, that brings up another, probably major issue with how things have been presented. @Hecaton actually put out a great thread to cover the matter and the very genuine desire for clarification, but in this context it boils down to 'some players picked Yu Jing as their faction and also did not want to play a 'villain/antagonist' faction' ', you can see a lot of those voices in the various threads we've gotten so far. Some players picked it because playing that sort of faction was the whole appeal, we've heard those voices as well, but for the former there is a great deal of confusion... did all of them misinterpret what their faction was, or has Corvus Belli decided to change that faction to something new they'd have never played if they knew at the outset? The latter is something they are justified in being displeased with, the former points to some sort of failure of communication...how did some people not recognize the obvious villainy of the faction they chose? @psychoticstorm thank you for the thorough reply! However, I still do not think you've been able to disprove genocide or intent to do so... if we need to define things, we've got a few options to go forward: from your interpretation, to find an example of this language being used where genocide wasnt attempted, from mine to find examples where this or lesser language was used to direct genocide. I've found a problem, from my side... pouring through sources from the collapse of Yugoslavia, from the genocide in Rwanda, even there the language is far less direct. This material from the Yuandun division is not only different from that of forces who are not seeking genocide, it is more extreme than even those who actually commit genocide! Would I be able to ask your interpretation of the quotations around pacify and the meaning thereof? Because without those two punctuation marks there are arguments to be made about the speaker believing (right or no) these harsh policies to be morally correct, security measures to pacify the population. But if those were true, why the " "?
Exactly. It's like an enlisted grunt saying, "We 'acquired' that truck, sir" when what they did was snuck into the motor pool and took the keys without permission. When I got into the game, I saw this as all of humanity running small ops against each other, jockeying for position, but the 'Bad Guys' of the setting were the Combined Army. Now apparently my faction is the bad guys, and the Combined are the worse guys (maybe). Very much this. If my commanding officer gave me that speech, it'd be My Lai all over again. "If they run, they're VC. If they don't run, they're well-trained VC." Men, women, children. All valid targets. Anyone big enough to physically hold a grenade is a threat, and to be shot. (Grenades are the size of a tennis ball)
I understand both sides of this, and honestly I think PS is quite right that it isn't explicit genocide - it's just 'kill anyone who doesn't fully co-operate and stay out of our way' which is, obviously, horrible. It's also something armies have done tons of times, especially when under the command of a an emotional fool on a power trip. And don't tell me you can't get idiots in command. Human history is full of idiots ending up in command - if you don't believe that, I point you to the last few centuries of human war, espionage, and conflict, which is more a list of how badly everyone messed up, rather than a show of competence. I assume truly efficient and well ordered organizations that persist for any length of time to be an exception, and not the rule. Honestly, the daily incidences in either World War, in Vietnam, Korea, were just as bad or worse than this. Look at the conflict in Syria, in the balkans, in the french revolution. There are plenty of examples of human badness, and yes, I don't particularly like it - I choose not to play ISS because I don't like it, but I wouldn't be so naive as to say the proposed setting is impossible. Also, the kuge showing up out of nowhere is a red-herring. Kuge is a japanese term that means 'noble' basically. So they've always been there, so when japanese movers and shakers got the tatenokai and kempeitei going on uprising, those movers and shakers were kuge. Being important in feudal japanese society is, basically, being kuge. It is like being a european duke or something, if you own a castle, you become a duke by virtue of being the guy with the castle, the army, and the money.
Catching up... First of all: PS, thank you for joining the discussion. I'm new to this community, but as I gather, you have some good connection to CB. I really do hope you will pass along our concerns regarding this event. Because I really do think these concerns merit some sort of response from CB... I mean, I'm a new player and I really do like Infinity. And I really do like CB as a company. But still, there are a few things related to the Uprising event that even I am concerned about. Like the whole Yuandun business, as well as other genocidal / criminal actions taken by the YJ during the Uprising... Speaking absolutely seriously: I'm really considering picking up the YJ as one of my factions - but the Uprising story is really making me doubt this decision. Coming into wargaming from the RPG hobby, the fluff is *very* important to me. And based on the Uprising book, the YJ are a faction that blows up dams to flood entire cities of civilians. Honestly, it... doesn't make the YJ a faction I'd be comfortable with playing. And as I said: I'm a new player and, until now, I was really appreciative of CB and enamoured with Infinity as a whole. I'm sure there are other people like me out there. So, it'd really be great if CB tried to help us make sense of this whole situation... I know the book and the digital material can't be altered... but how about a simple webpage article clarifying some of the controversial matters? I can't believe it cannot be done. See, the problem is, CB isn't giving us any indication whatsover whether interpreting Yuandun that way is correct. I mean, I really do hope that's the intention - and if that's the case, then sure, I can live with it. I can certainly accept the idea of some ISS / YJ units completely losing their marbles during the war. The problem is, we have no indication that this intepretation is something else than our wishful thinking. I read the Uprising book, I read the Treason missions... seriously, none of the material presents anything about the YJ that would show that anyone in the StateEmpire disagreed with the actions like those of the Yuandun. There are some mentions of Sun Tze's objections, as well as that of a memo from YJ command that adviced against mass bombings - but even those bits are written more in the tone of cold PR calculation. There is no mention of anyone in YJ protesting the genocidal actions of the ISS on the moral grounds! So, seriously - what are we to think? CB is leaving us all completely in the dark here... Again, a simple article with a basic mission statement (like, say, "Yes, Yuandun are the extremists, the rest of the YJ doesn't condone their actions. Bear with us to see a more moral side to YJ's government in the future") would help enormously. With all due respect, I honestly can't understand why you are claiming that there's no mention of genocide in Uprising? PsychoCrane was boasting about *mass graves*. A whole city was *drowned* because of the YJ / ISS blowing up a dam. And the YuanDun commander's speech *is* openly genocidal. Really, I've read it a few times, trying to find anything redeemable about it - and I found none. This guy is calling to kill all of the Japanese people in his warzone. There's no doubt about it. Eh. I'm from Poland I'm upset about the Yuandun fluff, too. Partly because of my nation's history - we do know what genocide is, believe me. Oh, I can play the bad guys... My favourite faction in WH40K are the Dark Eldar. And I plan on playing Ikari... Still, there *is* a line I won't cross. Seriously, playing a genocidal military detachmet in midst of ethnic cleansing? Sorry, it's a no go for me.
If this was all it was I would agree, but the fluff EXPLICITLY states its also based on thier ethnicity (Japanese getting the way, shoot, chinese, let them run) which makes it genocide by definition
@Shiwen I get it but it's also completely fictional. Honestly the best arguement is the whole this is isn't who I signed up with. Obviously to me I this all seems to be in character but if its honestly something you didn't think would happen then I can understand that. If tomorrow they come out with stuff saying the druze bayram security is now a group based around planting trees and collecting donations and all the profiles now only carry stun pistols than yeah I'd be 100% in the same boat as you guys. Then people could totally tell me oh so you don't charity and planting trees?? Not a great analogy but the point is as a major point of grievance to totally get it. I think each faction has it's own identity and if that changes for you then that's a reason to be angry and upset so I get it. @xagroth I meant as in our models were not actively committing genocide. I less you have a bunch of civilian models you're using on the board and killing.
But if I am at war with an enemy who is 100% of a certain ethnicity, then yes, it makes sense to treat that as their uniform. Is it immoral and shitty? Yes. Is it genocide? No. They aren't rounding up the citizens and killing them all. They aren't removing the Japanese population from the island. They haven't pulled a middle east and 'mysteriously' lost all the Armenians and Jews who were previously part of the population. Genocide is the systematic murder of EVERYONE. This isn't Rwanda where they go house to house with machetes, or gather people in buildings and then bulldoze them. I've been to the genocide museum in Rwanda. You guys are selling genocide cheap, and I don't think it's really fair. Genocide is not 'kill any who resist'... Genocide is find them all, and systematically kill each and every one, no matter what they are doing or if they surrender or co-operate. If it was genocide, there would be no citizens left in kuroimori.
The problem is that the kuge (nobility around the Imperial Court) were combined with the daimyo in the 1860s (with the Meiji restoration) into the kazoku (roughly translates to 'peerage'), and the kazoku had their titles stripped from them in 1947 with the Postwar Constitution. They still have a massive amount of money and political power, but they weren't dukes or whatever anymore. There hadn't been kazoku in Japan for more than 100 years when Japan got bought out by Yu Jing, and it'd been nearly 400 years since the kuge got rolled into the kazoku when the Uprising broke out. So yeah, calling the big sharks of the Japanese political scene kuge is a red herring. They're not nobles and they probably never were.
They're doing what the first nobles did. "I have money, power, and influence. Therefore I am obviously better, and obviously nobility." That's sort of how 'nobility' gets started. A group of people say 'hey I'm in charge, must be my superior breeding or something, let's make this hereditary'. Obviously I oversimplify, but the trend is there.
While the previous reading is fascinating I’m going to try to stick to the original post and about the Future of Yu Jing. Unfortunately it’s going to sound more like wish listing. Personally, I’m not longer going to do ISS for a while. They have just going too Yin for me. So going to balance out with the Yang. I’m either going to do Vanilla, with a focus on Invincible, or White Banner. No ISS troops for either. Going to be tough not having that MSV2 Hsien! Or I’ll kick the dust off my CA. The future of ISS I’d like to see more non-lethal weapons. I really think Bounty Hunters, at the least, should have Stun Pistols, Madtraps, ADHL, and Adhesive Mines as a part of their part of their profile. An option to put Akrylat-Kanone on a REM or HI would be awesome as well. I think a replacement of this with the Panzerfust on the Su-Jian would be fantastic. I really want more of an emphasis on Police. I’m really not sure about The Invincible Army. I’d like to see some mixed link teams. And make the Shang Ji worth taking! I’ve tried so many lists with it and I just can’t find a good reason it take them. Their old claim to fame was that they were faster than other HI. Back then HI was 4-2 move and they were 4-4. So make them 6-4 or 6-2 and I’d take them all the time! I’ve taken the basic one but then change it to a Wu Ming. For 2pts. You get a Multi-Rifle and 0 SWC LGL! I’m guessing Zahansi will be there but not as big of a role. And PLEASE! All Yu Jing HI should have at least Martial Arts Level 1. JSA should not be the only ones to have a monopoly on Martials art HI. China has a huge tradition of marital arts as well. I’m not even going to think of White Banner for a while. I really wanted them to be next. This is more wishing than anything but I want some new characters. And hopefully good guys. I want someone like Jackie Chan in Police Story. A recreation of Guan Yu or another hero of Legend. I’d also LOVE a Shaolin or Taoist Monk character but that would probably come with White Banner. And yes I want to see a more positive story about YJ in the future.
I would argue it makes them racist,not genocidal, this conversation made me realise how many genocides my country has in the recent 150ish years and how many in the countries around it. A simple but dark question is what is a genocide and what is racial aggression, if they really went for Genocide they would not bother with such operations round them up kill them all and all the problems solved no more terrorists, no more conflict, no need to hold the resources to pacify the region, too blunt they either kill or kuang shi them all all round them up send them to some god forsaken orbital or other similar fate repopulate kuraimori and be done with it, or worse if they wanted to be more practical and unethical round them up and send them to Japan and create a humanitarian disaster at the expence of Japan. Simply put the fact they still have them around means they have not abandoned them and still push to somehow integrate them again in the future, if those terrorists allow them. That does not mean its rainbows and sunshine and it will not be, but I doubt they are on genocide mode.
