Holo L2 + Assisted Fire

There's this rule on Holoprojector L2:

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Holoprojector#Holoecho_state_Game_Example:

Holoechoes, weapons, Equipment and states
A trooper in Holoecho state cannot replicate those Deployable weapons or pieces of Equipment represented by a Marker or model (TinBots, FastPandas, SymbioMates, Mines deployed by the MinelayerSpecial Skill...) the imitated model or himself could have.

However, the Holoecho state replicates all the game state Markers (Prone, Unloaded...) the Holoprojector L2 bearer has.


As I read it, the Assisted Fire marker would count as a "game state marker" but is not a piece of equipment. So you would place three Assisted Fire markers, one on each holoecho. (Or more realistically, one marker in the middle of the group)

 

If you make use of the Lu Duan's Repeater to put Assisted Fire on it the real one is revealed anyways.

 

I'd also imagine given it's a hacking program that has a defined target, you'd have to be explicit about which holoecho you target.

 

Incidentally, RAW Overclock would not, I think (since it does not say it uses the Repeaters, but that affects the entire table).

 

Good points. You could certainly re-holo after gaining assisted fire, though.

 

I'm not seeing anything that indicates the HoloEcho state is lost. The cancellation clauses do not mention anything of the sort

Spoiler

Cancellation

• The Holoecho state of the real Holoprojector L2 bearer is canceled, removing all the holographic decoys and placing the model in its real position, whenever:
  • The Holoprojector L2 bearer declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert).
  • Following the previous, the Holoprojector L2 bearer declares a Surprise Attack or a Surprise Shot.
  • The Holoprojector L2 bearer enters base to base contact with a model.
  • The Holoprojector L2 bearer is successfully Discovered.
  • The Holoprojector L2 bearer receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit.
  • The Holoprojector L2 bearer becomes Impetuous (due to the Frenzy Characteristic or any other effect) or enters the Retreat! state.
  • The Holoprojector L2 bearer breaks Coherency with the other Holoechoes.
• Whenever the Holoecho state of the Holoprojector L2 bearer is canceled, remove all the holographic decoys at the end of the Order that happened. If the bearer was hidden as a Holoecho Marker or as a different model, replace it with the bearer's model, facing the same direction, at the end of the Order that happened.

An exception to this rule is made when Holoprojector L2 bearer fails an Initial Coherency Check, then the player must remove all the holographic decoys immediately, before measuring movement, if he has declared any.

• The Holoecho state of a holographic decoy is canceled, whenever:
  • It is successfully Discovered.
  • It enters base to base contact with a model.
  • It receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit.
  • It breaks Coherency with the other Holoechoes.
  • The real Holoprojector L2 bearer's Holoecho state is cancelled for any reason.
• Anytime a holographic decoy cancels its Holoecho state the player must remove its Holoecho from the table at the end of the Order that happened.
• An exception to this rule is made when the Holoecho fails a Coherency Check, then the player must remove the Holoecho immediately, before measuring movement, if he has declared any.

• The cancellation of the Holoecho state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a trooper in the Holoecho state declares a Move + BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement.

and the repeater rule that hits Camo and Impersonation does not say anything about HoloProjection.

Spoiler

Repeater + Impersonation or Camouflage and Hiding
Troopers or pieces of Equipment that have Repeater in addition to any Special Skills that allows them to act as Markers instead of figures (Camouflage and Hiding, Impersonation...) reveal themselves automatically if a friendly Hacker attempts to use their Repeater ability.

Hackers cannot use a repeater carried by an enemy trooper in a Marker state.

At most I think you would have to point out which marker you are applying the program to. Not a crazy penalty to me as you are still going to get the surprise shot and could play the 3 card monte game while moving as well.

 

I've added highlights to what you missed inside the second spoiler. It doesn't mention CH and IMP skills specifically, but Markers in general sense.

I think it sucks that Holoecho state isn't handling all echoes as if they were the model itself so that each KHD Kanren's echo would say hackable even if pretending to be FO Zhanshi and that using its Repeater for 0-range hacks reveals it, but that's where it seems to be.

 

Aha! Thanks.

 

Umm, what?

All of a KHD Kanren's Echoes ARE Hackable. The echoes replicate the Hackability of the original: otherwise you'd never be able to target them with Hacking Programs.

So if you deploy 4 Achilles, 3 of them are not-Hackable and one is.

 

If you used another repeater, you could definitely give it a supportware program, but you would have to explicitly show/state which one you were measuring range to. The 3 card monte tactic you suggest wouldn't really work well since you are officially supposed to have one real model and two clearly marked holoecho 1 and holoecho 2 markers. If you're playing with any sort of alternate token, you need to make sure that you're not obscuring any information the opponent is supposed to have access to.

 

Because Holoprojector L2 says that the Hackable characteristic of the Holo trooper is open information when in range of a hacking area.

The way I interpret that is that if you move the above mentioned Kanren into range of McGregor, they'll know which one is hackable of the three echoes. And that makes Holo2 so much worse.

 

This is how I understood it as well.

 

I think Morgana's example in the holo2 rules has her hacking an empty echo...

If it worked as you say, she would have never rolled, knowing that it was an echo beforehand.

And yeah, I agree that having to look for the rules in the examples is a headache.

 

Both of the echoes are also Hackable is my point. The rules make it clear that echoes can be eligible targets for hacking. My understanding is that this applies if the original trooper is Hackable, because for Holo 1 we know that the Hackability follows the original not the fake.

Basically, we know all 3 Lu Duan holoechoes are Hackable. Same is true of a AHD/KHD Kanren.

"Holoprojector L2 and Hacking Example:
The perfidious Interventor Morgana gets an ARO when the Holoecho of a Yáoxiè Lù Duān enters in her Zone of Control. As this trooper possesses the Hackable Characteristic, Morgana, with an evil smile, declares a Hacking ARO against it. The Interventor succeeds the roll only to realize much to her chagrin that it was just a holographic decoy and not the real Holoprojector L2 bearer. The Holoecho vanishes into thin air, and is remove atd from the game table."

 

That is true for Lu Duan, i still haven't see any rule, rule errata or profile errata saying that Kanren is suppose the possess the Hackable Characteristic when using the KHD loadout. Even models that are always hackers don't have the Hackable Characteristic icon on their Profiles. Every models can be hacked including for example a Zero Deployable Reapeater loadout.

 

The Hackable characteristic is Open Information.

Troops with Comms Equipment can be hacked ONLY by those hacking programs that target Comms Equipment (Oblivion, for example).

 

Similarly, hackers cannot be hacked by Total Control but only by those hacking programs that targets Hacking Device owners. I didn't follow the point you were trying to make...

I say every models can only be targeted by the appropriate hacking programs (the one where they meet the requirements). So being able to be targeted by a program like Brain Blast does not automatically grants you the Hackable Characteristic icon. Or else the same should be true of targets of Spotlight. If not all programs are treated the same, then on which program do you base the idea that hackers should receive Hackable but not other troops ? Targets of Gotcha counts but not targets of Oblivion ? Talking of Gotcha note how hackers are not even listed in the bracketed list example of enemy that have Hackable.

edit: as for being Open, yes i agree on that. It is always open info. In both cases (if you have it or if you lack it) you must disclose the info.

 

Aside from Defensive and White hacking devices, a hacker is a target of all other devices: brain blast, gotcha, blackout, skullbuster...

A Heavy Infantry could say something (like Reaper the Ayyar) against KHD or EVO, but a hacker has no elbow room.

 

This doesn't change the argument though: either all echoes are Hackable or none are. The hackability is based on the original trooper.

The Hackers aren't Hackable argument is entirely separate. But sure, if you want to play it that way tell your opponent what programmes work instead.