Perhaps they're looking to phase Yu Jing out as a faction and replace it with JSA? I don't think that they thought that Yu Jing would be in a place where the Japanese leaving would be bearable, I just think they didn't care - they figured JSA would be a hot seller, and they had already sold plenty of Red Veil. There seems to be an attitude of not caring about supporting miniatures that have already been sold. They're not particularly concerned with treating the factions and the players who have invested money in them fairly - instead they're interested in pushing new releases as they come out.
See, this is the kind of rhetoric which turns people away. I don't think YJ is being phased out. You're being histrionic, and it degrades the dialogue. Take a break, this is obviously making you way too angry.
They definitely overestimated the importance of a bunch (okay, a ton) of resculpts and minor profile additions. Reading Gutiers interview, he's like "oh nah mate, Yu Jing is fine, we gave them a lot of love so this Uprising definitely doesn't affect them".
@ hecaton we had the chance this weekend to meet with Guthier, the creator of the game background and most rules in Lyon. And I asked him how he feels about the reactions to the uprising. For him, this uprising thing was in the air for quiet some time. It was only a natural evolution of an evolutive world. He is a passionate man who tries to create and animate an SF world for us the player to dream and play. Please do not assume you know his intentions and motive.
If that's the case, maybe they're making the right decision. A relatively new player (<1 year) returned to my playgroup recently after a hiatus to find that a lot of the models he had bought to augment his Red Veil starter just weren't usable by him anymore. If he had been "turned away" from buying the Shikami and Oniwaban, he wouldn't be in this situation. Another guy, bent on getting a fully painted vanilla YJ force on the table, had a bunch of the work he put into things like the O-Yoroi negated for his project.
First of all, he's not gonna say "mea culpa." (Not that it would be helpful if he did, but w/e). Second, prior to this, who knew how far off it would be, and if the JSA/YJ split would even be successful. Maybe it'd be an ongoing event with the rebellion in progress? Instead, it kind of happened "off screen" with absolutely no player/community involvement, which is, in my opinion, a poor way to tell a story when we have this wargame that could be used to tell stories in an interactive, engaging manner.
I think one of the issues here is that Yu Jing really did get a lot of love. Just prior to this, we had the Year of Yu Jing, with Bostria waxing poetic about how much he personally loved the faction. Uprising as an event is fine. The Year of Yu Jing is fine. Uprising ripping apart Yu Jing as a faction after Yu Jing has already received so much attention is problematic. Because now, in order to fix Yu Jing, and it does need fixing, from a play perspective and a fluff perspective, Yu Jing will need even more attention. Attention that really should be going elsewhere. Like Haqqislam. So unfortunately, I feel we're in a position where Yu Jing has received a lot of attention already and is going to have to receive even more to put it in a place where it should be.
True dat. Which means other factions's players will hate Yu Jing even more. So on the campaing front unless there is some competent under-the-table deals Yu Jing's future looks bleak.
Can we have one of these threads been discussed in a calm manner? Admittedly this is one of the calmest so far, still could go easier.
I never really felt like there was a "Year of Yu Jing." Yu Jing had less sectorials than a few other factions even before JSA was excised out. Now it seems there's likely to be a death spiral of CB guts Yu Jing => interest in faction decreases => sales of faction decrease => CB releases less for the faction that isn't making them as much money => interest in faction decreases etc.
Yeah, this side of things hasn't been talked about much either (mostly, I'd assume, because most of the discussion has been focused on the effects this has on Yu Jing and is in the Yu Jing subforum). But it is also a big problem. From the inside, a year of resculpts and overbloating a sectorial that many of us felt HSN3 fixed perfectly well (seriously, ISS in HSN3 was what I would consider a 100% complete sectorial and it was a massive improvement over 2nd Edition) doesn't feel like it really warrants much hype. If that was "The Year of Yu Jing" that was so fantastic that it justified gutting vanilla? Well, hrm... that doesn't feel great. But meanwhile, from the outside, CB made the mistake of basically wearing the favouritism on their sleeve. They announced the Year of Yu Jing, made them take up a ton of CB's limited monthly production slots, and continued tweaking ISS even after most folks thought it was done. From an outside perspective, especially from folks that feel like they were put on the backburner for it, that feels pretty shitty as well. I'll chalk this up to another PR hiccup. CB's penchant for "fan boying" their own factions has sort of bit them in the arse here. Yu Jing players are disgruntled because they've been gutted, non-Yu Jing players are upset because this basically looks like CB is about to heap a bunch more work on a faction that they feel already got too much attention, and CB are left with a quagmire are frayed nerves and folks just looking for some clear answers instead of their normal cryptic "I know something you don't" tactic. The longer they stay silent, the longer this is allowed to get out in front of them and take on a life of its own, the worse it will get for them. Customer good will isn't something to squander without good cause (hell, not something to squander at all if we're being honest) at it feels like that is what is going on here. It feels like CB still want to splash around in the shallow end despite their pretensions year after year of being big dogs in the industry. They aren't that tiny little boutique minis company with a grassroots cult following anymore, they need to stop pretending they can have it both ways and learn to communicate with their customers AND be more open with their plans. Corvus Belli, stop turtling up, stop hiding from the community and actually use these forums to talk to us and engage with us. The reason this bad blood is starting to spill out, the reason folks are on edge, the reason you've needed to close threads from the growing anger is because you, yes YOU are staying silent and detached from this thing that you have done. You're letting others write your narrative here, and many of them are not so kind as to give you unlimited benefit of the doubt when it comes to decisions you've made (especially if they see a pattern forming based on past screw-ups). Perhaps you don't think any of us are owed an explanation. Perhaps you're right. But can you really afford to be wrong? In the long run, is this kind of bad blood and tension the kind of thing you want to encourage with your silence? The ball is in your court and has been for months. Talk to us or don't, just don't be surprised when people that have been fans and customers of yours for years if not more than a decade decide to pack up and go taking their word of mouth that you've relied on for growing your game with them.
How much of all these wonderful year of Yu Jing things that Yu Jing got supposedly to preemptively placate us for the coming Uprising did Haqqislam not share in, without the downsides? The regular bounty hunters (I see this as a correction rather than a buff after instruction creep from Le Meut and Krakot Renegade) New CSU profiles (probably an accidental side-effect of empowering StarCo). None of this is really going to excite the YuChino, and I don't think anyone would be happy for a book in which the Hassissin Barham suddenly goes NA2 and slays Qapu Kalqi and Rammah Taskforce like mook stormtroopers whilst every other faction lines up to piss on them. "Nah bro, hassassin dislike of Saladin has been in the fluff from the beginning"
I am curious, on a scale of 1-10, approximately how accurate do you think that is a representation of what happened with YJ and JSA, fluff-wise and gameplay wise? This kind of pointless exaggeration does not make for real dialogue about how poorly this whole thing was handled.
Let's see. I don't think anyone would be happy for a book in which the [Japanese Sectorial Army] suddenly goes NA2 and slays [Imperial Service] and [Invincible Army] like mook stormtroopers whilst every other faction lines up to piss on them. "Nah bro, [Japanese] dislike of [Sun Tze] has been in the fluff from the beginning" I think I'll go with 10.
Except the Japanese have at no point been fully at home/integrated/valued in YJ the same way the Old Man has/is in Haqqislam. The unrest/chafing/whatever you will has been a constant theme.
Except that massive conflict between the national pride of the Japanese and the Yu Jing empire has always been a point of the fluff since N3 at least. There has never been fluff that pitted the HB against QK. I don't think this is even remotely a good comparison.
That's true, and that's probably a point on which I'd disagree with @the_huanglong about it, but the way it was implemented has obviously left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. Why it had to be a violent rebellion, specifically, and one in which Yu Jing lost conclusively, with every ally lining up with JSA against them (including O-12, who presumably will not pay them reparations for the Japanese territory that they stole from them), beggars the imagination.
I am fairly certain I have read an interview with Interrupter that claims the average Japanese Citizen is content. This is a sketchy claim, but fuck it's hard to find anything INFINITY related in the search engine. I'm pretty sure the core book makes this clear as well. Them suddenly going all or nothing in a life or death insurrection is silly. We all know that if CB was to suddenly make HB NA2 and write a book written as I described you would be on here defending it, because "it's their game".
Preposterous! The nation of Japan was fully integrated into the StateEmpire of Yu Jing, given rights and privileges for internal government, to form their own military forces, while the Hachib disavows all knowledge and association with this 'Old Man' and those murderous assassins who act in violation of all local and international law! To imply that these 'hassassins' are somehow intimately bound to the nation of Haqqislam? At best an insult to that proud people, at worst a matter demanding thorough prosecution in the Concilium Courts!
Okay after reading about 600 posts on this subject I feel I want to say my piece. I have been a Yu-Jing player form the start of my infinity journey. I did pick up a JSA starter pack first (because I liked the minis more that the normal Yu-Jing one), along side a Hesin HMG and a Guilang. I had no idea how sectorials worked. I liked the Fluff about who they were kinda semi one party state with a vote for which side of the political field they promote. I also liked they idea that they were more authoritarian nation than most but also more egalitarian with a better wealth distribution than Pan'O. lastly they were tolerant of other traditions, religions and cultures in their collective where as Haqq and Pan'O are mostly mono religion. pan'O is the most intolerant in my mind because the church controls who gets to live longer than one life time. The year of models was great. The new Yu-Jing in the starter was great to have. But this was another bit of bad planning on CB's part for the campaign. They should have known that we would have lots of new and inexperienced players. their first taste of the global campaign was to be slammed the whole way through on the table and in the fluff. The focus on the ISS was a good thing to do as it meant new players that joined Yu-Jing because of Red Vial were more likely to get ISS minis not JSA making it more likely that Uprising would effect them that much. We now have one of the best looking armies in the game. It was a good year for minis. So I feel Yu-Jing has been shown some real love for CB in this regard. the one negative is it made the Kuang-Shi our most famous unit and it has become the negative face of the faction. if they were war criminals and murderers not political prisoners it would help. but with some more positive fluff in other areas/units this dark side would be fine and balanced like it felt in the original book. Now fluff Through to Paradiso and the flame strike campaign I was 100% happy with the way Yu-Jing has been handled. We put up a good fight in Wotan, but got screwed by the AI historians and we were then punished in the fluff. Sucked a bit but was alright. I was looking forward to the fluff set up in the next campaign. It seemed clear that Nomads were meant to be our target and maybe other factions would turn on them because they gave Haqq nothing for their assistance. in the gaming world they were proven to be the most played faction alongside Pan'O Then my hopes seemed confirmed by the Wotan fluff. Nomads letting CA in. will not open up for investigation. Surly we can get some support going against them in the campaign. But all that negative Fluff form Flame Strike had made it a thing to gang up on Yu-Jing. I was one of the Jade circle who were trying to lead the faction. During the first stage we were flatly turned down when we asked other factions for some coordination. The reasons were basically it was funny in Flame Strike so we will do it again. Tohaa were about to take one of the Nomad areas when they suddenly started going after us. This stopped us being able to win anything as Nomads were now free to defend one area. We just about held on to our ship. Tohaa gained nothing, we gained nothing and Nomads were given an easy ride. felt like people were not playing with the object of getting the best result for themselves but just to make sure Yu-Jing were last again. must have been quite dull for the Nomad command. they were never taxed to make hard calls. Yu-Jing were useless was the round up for our efforts in the fluff downlaoad. in the second stage we had all our built up defense points striped while haqq kept theirs dispute having been under no pressure at all during stage one. We were given a second area to defend, and then a mission to attack Ariadna (who were the only faction that was any where near neutral towards us), while other factions were given missions to take our locations. (I thought the mission system was going to be a way to make sure there was a balanced amount of conflict going on. seemed like a great idea for directing efforts and making sure everyone was pressed) There was another round of fluff saying what an utter failure Yu Jing was. Our players gave up, number of reports dropped by more than half, and we were done. we got dog piled, then slammed in the end of stage two fluff. A CB staff member told a load of players to do missions in one place while the players who were trying to lead things had said another. end of the campaign we get slammed again fluff wise. I do not mind losing. It can also be fun to be doing your best in a bad situation. But when your efforts to do so just get mocked using negative fluff it begins to feel like a personal insult. Now we are sensitive because we have had nothing positive said about our role in the story for almost 3 years. All it would have taken was for it to have been painted like we put up a good fight despite being pressed by multiple factions at once. Nothing was given without cost on the enemy. look at Yu-Jing sacrifice their station and ship to aid Pan'O when they were nearly losing to the CA (something we really did during the last week of Wotan) but no. Yu-Jing gets thrown no bone. Next Yu-Jing suffers Uprising. first off I like uprising. and I like that CB wan to keep things moving story wise. But there were too many mistakes on the Yu-Jing side to keep them looking good coupled with to many ill deeds to make them not look evil. I remember the old fluff so it does not look so terrible, but that is feeling further and further away. Would have been nice if there was stuff like GoGo asking the Koreans or Mongolians what they think about the uprising and have them say the Japanese were the problem and were given every chance to fit in. Or have some accounts of Japanese civilians turning themselves into Yu-Jing troops and being screened before being rewarded for remaining loyal. Could the JSA have tried to capture 8 or 9 regions but been thwarted in all but 5? why do we not have reports of Yu-Jing company employees that were in Tokyo or other JSA regions being butchered by JSA troops. Maybe even in the locations of the worst ISS actions? any of it would make the whole thing more balanced. Anyway It is done. I will still enjoy the one sided account of things as exactly that. It does not kill Yu-Jing for me but I want more people to be drawn to my faction not turned off because they only see this latest fluff. Whats next I hope we get some reports about things the Yu-Jing forces achieved during the up rising or have things they do after. Maybe it could be revealed that the Japanese emperor's only son was captured and due to the Emperors age there is the worry that the line direct decent will be broken. Yu-Jing can strike back and kill a number of Kuge as they are making illegal deals with the Ikari company in a secret meeting place so no one can complain about it. have some high ranking Pan'O spy killed at the same time that screws up their plans. Have the Yu-Jing make a deal with Ariadna to vote with them on the claim that Yu-Jing occupation of Kurage (might have the name wrong) base was illegal and by extension so is the current Japanese presence. Yu-Jing can apologize forcing other nations to vote for the motion or be seen as pro illegal occupations and imperialism. They could do this for favorable trade or even joint mining operations in the area. Have Yu-Jing unite some units form their regional armies to show how Yu-Jing's many cultures work in harmony and that the Japanese were the stubborn exception to the norm. Just anything smart and not evil will do. Maybe this is all a set up for Yu-Jing to have its true nature reviled in a few years time. If that is the case, give us a good indication that your trying to make us look bad so there is a reason for reform. Not simply what we should come to expect as our new direction. I do not want my faction to turn into the oppressive raciest dictatorship. I do not like playing the bad guys. I don't mind playing the shades of grey guys though. that is one thing I really like about the infinity fluff. In the next campaign expect us to be weak and do not slam us for every failure if we are set on from all sides like the goofy kid in the playground. Its not hard to make it better than it has been recently.
