Hm, fair enough, 8 might be my memory playing on me. But not below 4 either - 4-5 seem to me. Spektr-Dasyu I've seen, but I also know Spektr is overall considered overpriced so it might be a bit of a flawed comparison. Considering Deva vs Govads: Deva 23 : +1 WIP, Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, NWI Govad 21 : Rifle+Light Shotgun, MSV1, Vet1, Religious, Breaker Pistol +1 WIP : 2 pts (due to 14->15) Combi Rifle : 1 pts over R+LS (looking at CSU) Nanopulser : 1 pts ================== 19 pts for base, then Going up to Govad: MSV1 : +4 pts (based on Le Muets pretty clear case) Vet1 : +1 pts Religious : free Breaker Pistol : free ================== 25 pts This would put NWI at 4 points. Or let's keep it in house: Danavas to Sophotect Danavas AHD : 23 AHD : 6 pts (from Dasyu/Nagas) Pitcher : 1 pts Breaker Pistol : free BTS +3 : 1 pts ==================== 15 6-4 : +2 pts Doctor+Medikit : +4 pts (Hospitallers) Engineer+D-Charges : +4 pts (Brawlers) ARM +1 : +1 pts ================== 26 pts NWI: 5 pts (depending on 6-4 move costing)
I don't think that NWI is overcosted, i think that the Symbiont Armour is REALLY undercosted. And like others said, if you want something dead during your active turn, the odds are that you can kill it, you don't even need Shock ammo to kill NWI with one order, you can kill it with a rifle if you score 2 hits with one order, shit happens, for exemple, last ITS my TR bot killed my opponent's Yan Huo HRMC on his first order of the game, he was hitted 3 times and rolled 1, 3 and 3 for armor. shit happens...
With all due respect, without being a negative Nancy here. I think it's against the "informal rules" to post profile breakdowns on CB's units.
While I agree Symbiont Armour is criminally undercosted, that's a discussion for other times (and forums). This is a completely vacuous and irrelevant claim - I don't even want to call it an argument. For one thing, it is not a question of being "able" to kill it in one Order or ARO. Question is how often and in what circumstances, and what are the averages. I don't object to Shock being able to invalidate NWI (on single wound models anyway, the FAQ about multiwound is a story for other times), but rather of relative availability* / frequency of Shock ammo versus the cost and other benefits of NWI. And even if we accept your premise how "Shock doesn't change much since you can still get hit twice and fail both armour rolls", it only makes the case stronger that NWI is overcosted, since you are paying points for something that is not as useful. *And for the record, I checked; basic Deva, Sophotect, Dasyu profiles did not get cheaper going from N2 to N3, and Asura Spitfire (most used profile) only got cheaper by 2 points, where many other troops did go down in points, or at least stayed on the same level. Comparably, Shock significantly increased in frequency via things like DropBears, Red Fury, Shock Marksman Rifle, Marksmanship (both basic skill and ability to upgrade Remotes) - even Hackers now have access to it via Trinity; not to mention wider availability of SMGs which tend to be popular option on available troops due to low cost. I just checked the files: in N2, Shock was available on Mines and Submachine Guns (which were available on Odalisque, Scots Guards and Thorakitai). That was all as far as I can see (please someone correct me if I'm wrong - I am in awe of how little Shock there was). Double note: yeah, I know, available on bunch of CCWs, but please, CC was so unusuable then it's not worth the bits I write this on.
There are some skills in the game that feel way too costly for what they give us, and NWI is one of them. I see a lot of ALEPH players complaining about this nerf, and it surprises me that Combined Army players aren't, as the nerf hit the CA aspects WAY harder (read up on mnemonica. Basically an army that was once immune to LoT now has to really worry about it.) The way I see it, the game needs a little rebalance on points cost, yes. On the same token, I think that the nerf wasn't as damaging as people seem to make it. TR bots were already a threat, that doesn't change them much, and I don't see someone willingly walking over a mine with their Asura unless they are making a desperate gamble (which can happen, yes). To sum it up: In my opinion shock is very common, but it is also something you can mostly plan around, which is the same for most of the annoying rules in Infinity, really. The only thing that I can't plan around is bad dice :D
Agreed, i just wanted to point that i think that NWI have a nice price. And you were a bit agressive, we're not fighting, only discussing. I guess that the true problem with ALEPH units are not NWI vs Shock, but the whole package, the units are not expensive because they have NWI, but because they have NWI and a bunch of other things, like ODD/TO, good stats, specialist skills...
Yeah, sorry for sounding aggressive, but this discussion has been repeated many times over. I disagree. My problem is not that Aleph units are too expensive, they are cost inefficient. That's a different thing. While I would be okay with their cost going down a point or two here or there (or more like 5 for Teucer), my real problem is that Aleph units do not bring enough to the table for the points they cost. Note also that I focus on Vedic rather than SP units, mostly because SP units often come with Frenzy which easily makes up for the problematic pricing (plus in SP they get to ignore Frenzy most of the time). Just look at Teucer - he does not have Frenzy and he is barely seen. I love the mini so I field him, but he is not pulling his weight even under ideal circumstances. Problem with NWI pricing is not Aleph specific, however, most armies only field one or two units with NWI. Vanilla Aleph will often rely significantly on them, which in turn means the pricing issue is multiplied significantly. And while yes, by itself it is not super-critical, compounded with other Infinity pricing issues (like overpricing of high stats (WIP in particular for Aleph), Camo being undercosted in other armies, serious lack of weapon options) this all makes Aleph harder to play. But even that is not the biggest problem. Biggest problem is that Aleph does not really match it's fluff anymore. Especially not the vanila Aleph. Whats' the point of trying to pretend you have high quality androids when everyone just ignore their special bonuses? Once the premier heavy infantry of the human sphere is now a profile I take when I'm building weak list on purpose. Devas suffer from being in NCA and thus completely bland, with none of the interesting options to take advantage of their really nice stat line - and then you have to pay premium because NWI used to be really, really good. Basically, Sophotect and Posthumans are all the fluff thats left. And Dakinis and Garudas are okay too. But even when we get a new profile, it's got none of the hallmarks of Aleph (well, one, it's carrying a Combi Rifle) and all of the hallmarks of a Nomad profile.
I don't think that many Aleph units have problems. There are only a few, Andromeda and Asura. I personnally don't really like deva as well, but that's only me - i find them plain and i would like them to have a bit more variety in weapons, like smg or marksman rifle, but their cost and performance is not a problem.
Honestly I think they should ditch the ammo types off of submachine guns. That would go a long way towards making them appropriately costed and would make it harder to threaten expensive NWI units. Plus submachine guns having more stopping power than assault rifles is straight make believe.
I don't think NWI is overcosted at all, it super cheap compared to a full second wound AND it includes courage, I love picking to pass or fail my guts checks. Yes shock ammo is every where. Most remotes can get it for the cost of an order each round. I use and play against mines, smgs, multi ammo all the damn time. But I'm paying 3 points (over the cost of courage) to be 2 wounds still against the majority of models in my opponent's list. During active turn I control my engagements, and during reactive, I force my opponent to use only certain models to counter mine efficiently. Nothing wrong with that. My only problem with NWI is the recent "clarification" on multiple wound models. It appears to me to contradict RAW, and it hurts models that already we're not terribly popular. Who know maybe Vedic will give the asura some other buff. Anyway, I think vanilla aleph is great right now and works well when fielded as an elite force or when fielding 1 or 2 hitters and a lot of cheap orders. Devas and some older Vedic troops feel a little plain, but I'm sure their time is coming.
Taking NWI as a second wound is a huge mistake. Sure, for veteran players it's obvious what you mean when you say you have 'kind of two wounds' but NWI is not a second wound. If a Mobile brigada takes 2 wounds it goes unconscious and you can revive it next turn. If a Deva takes 2 wounds, it's dead. What NWI allows is for a model to keep functioning when it shouldn't, and that is both better and worse than 2 wounds in many aspects. It's a big deal, really, and I think that what we're seeing now is a classic 'spring effect' sittuation: "When I started playing, NWI was too strong and had little counters. Therefore NWI was 'overpowered" now it's "NWI counters are too common, therefore NWI is overcosted." It's two sides of the same problem, really. And I don't think it can be balanced easily.
@DaRedOne truth. Levels of unconscious have lots of value, especially on models like Asura or Hector who are very valuable, and you would prefer the option to revive. You see similar disagreements around manned/remote tags. The 2 levels of unconscious are a big deal.
Frenzy is a big tax, if you want to overcome it- as wasting points on 'useless' fire team members, doesn't win you games, it only makes it easy for opponents to take out all the eggs in your basket in one fell swoop.
Frenzy is an easy discount with no real drawback if you want to run the guy as part of a fireteam anyway. (In my oppinion Eudoros having two bodyguards and getting that sweet burst bonus is well worth the investment.) For a lone model (like a sniper) having access to cover bonus is a must. I think the main problem with Teucer is his being outplayed by Atalanta (as an elite active turn hunter-killer) and/or the Agema marksman (as an MSV2 ARO piece). (Indeed from time to time he is played for good results, though.)
Not only in fireteams. In most situations frenzy isn't a big problem. For example, I often use Diomedes. The turn he lands, he has no frenzy, so he can take cover. He will probably do some kills. Then i can put him in suppressive. He can still take cover. He will only lose cover at my next turn, when frenzy will kick in and become impetuous, but even so, i'll gain one impetuous order at that very moment ! Honestly, frenzy does nothing as long as your troop does not do any damage. The moment it deals damage, it will have probably done its job and earned its points. And even so, you'll still have to wait for your next active turn before you experience it's drawback, and even it is mild: you are only standard impetuous, so you can freely cancel the impetuous move, and you can benefit from the free order if you want it.
He is one of my MVPs. Each time i field him, he does very well, he even won the game by himself quite a few games. And since i often use him on turn 2, after my opponent had to move a bit toward objectives, he will generally do some kills on turn 2, be a big headache during the opponent's turn, and gain a free impetuous order on turn 3 when i need it the most. He is vulnerable to shock through, but deployment zones are not the place where shock is the more prevalent. I would say it's rather the midfield, with mines, multi weapons ... Ho and by the way he is one of the few multi rifle we have in Aleph, so he has shock too :) Personnally i'd rather take the mk12/assault pistol through, because of range and damages.
