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Petition: Guijia, Raicho and Maghriba

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Mahtamori, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    On the other hand. I don't want to be completely dismissive of Mahtamori concern over the viability of TAGs. I think its still a work in progress for CB. Certainly having Fatality lv 1 for free should become permanent.

    What I would argue is that the Maghariba is already plenty good enough for Haqqislam. Its a faction with great specalists, lots of cheap troops to support a TAG. I would actually claim that Haqqislam is one of the best factions to run a manned TAG. The Muttawiah are ava 4 and a great deterience from rambos attacking your TAG. Barids are dirt cheap hackers that can easily protect your TAG. You could have 2 order pools and a TAG with Haqqislam which doesn't really work well for Pano.
     
    #21 Death, Dec 17, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  2. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I'm not comparing Panos HI to either of those HI. I'm comparing the crap Orc to the bargain bin cheap Terra-cotta Soldiers. You can very easily run 5-6 HI in a Yu Jing list and have it work quite well. The weapon and specalist options on their HI are much more varied which is also a very important factor.

    A lot of Pano HI are just not going to be played outside of sectorials like most of the knights. Even our only smoke option, the assault guard tends not to get played outside of SAA.
     
    #22 Death, Dec 17, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I have some concerns regarding TAGs in general. This thread is not actually about that. It's more about the niche troop type that is TAGs having a specific troop profile that is found in essentially 5 factions. I do have extra concerns specifically relating to the barebone TAG performance, however.
    Fair doos on the comparison part. Most people take the premium and recognised stuff and do comparisons to them. Orcs do have a direct comparison in Yu Jing (Shang-Ji, both in terms of cost and impopularity). The niche of Yu Jing HI that you're referring to, however, has already been diluted thanks to above all else Riot Grrls (and that at base 30, Zuyong are still a bit expensive and basic to run a extensively for vanilla, and as a player on this side of the fence the specialists options leave quite a bit to desire).
     
  4. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    they are vanilla TAGs, that is their "unique" role. they done need more than that, and even accepting that they all have their "niche" skills and abilities.

    The raicho is immune to isolation which is huge for a TAG given that EM does both and the equal most dangerous program to TAGs causes isolation.

    The Magg has either;
    The cheapest ARM per total pts in the game at ARM8 (A cost of less than 10 pts per pip of ARM)
    OR
    A 360 visor which is huge for a TAG that is ARM8 and can put down BS14 AP/Shock spuression fire, the damn thing is basically a TR TAG.
    it also has its massive silly meaning it climbs where it wants

    Maybe an argument could be made for the guija being solely the vanilla TAG chassis. but really, the counter is that Yu Jings not the "TAG" faction and the guija is fulfilling the role in the list of "Main battle TAG" with the Oyori being the light TAG for the faction.

    There really isnt a need to add anything special to these TAGs as the already do have their own niche and special abilities that set them apart from other TAGs and give them a clearly defined role in their respective lists.
     
    #24 daboarder, Dec 17, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
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  5. Wildgit

    Wildgit Member

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    Man, this line alone are already shown that this whole thread is run solely by memes.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Guess I should describe how I classify the different TAGs:
    • Main Battle TAGs have a MultiHMG and a secondary weapon: Squalo, Guijia, Lizard, Maghariba Guard, and Raicho are all MBTs.
    • TAG Destroyers have a HRMC: Drago and Szalamandra (and Overdron, though that ones a bit odd due to light armor)
    • Heavy TAGs have more armor: Jotum and Avatar (if there was a Szallie with a MultiHMG, it'd be a Heavy due to BTS9).
    • Stealth TAGs have Camo or TO: There are two builds, one for killing TAGs (Cutter and Uhlan) and one for killing Infantry (Sphinx)
    • 2nd Line TAGs have a plain HMG (or Spitfire, if CB really hates you) and are S7: Seraph, O-Yoroi, Tikbalang, Anaconda, and Gorgos. 2nd Line TAGs aren't necessarily a generation older, but the equivalent is M60 tanks versus Abrams, less gun and armor than current MBTs.
    • Light TAGs are generally S6 and lightly armed (Mk12 or Spitfires): Geckos and Xeodrons. Scarface falls here due to low ARM and Mk12s, even though he's S7.

    The way I see it, the Main Battle TAGs are supposed to be very similar to each other, just like how the Leopard 2 is a Challenger 2 is a LeClerc is an Abrams A2 is a T64/72/80 is a Merkava 4. While there are some significant technical differences between them, the critical difference between them all is crew training, and that's reflected in how good a player you are, not model stats.

    • Of the MBTs, the Maggie Guard's 'thing' is being significantly less expensive (78pts versus 85-91 for everyone else). Maybe if 360 visor was 15 points instead of 20 (so cost 93pts instead of 98)?
    • Squalo's 'thing' is being Remote Presence (and the optional HGL).
    • Not sure what to do for the Lizard. XVisor would probably be bad on the HGL! :smilingimp:
    • Not sure what to do for the Guijia, either, though I would like my Guijia HGL back. AP CCW isn't that big a deal, DA would probably be better.
    • I'd like to give the Raicho Full Auto as a matter of fluff, but that's like another 10pts on what is already the most expensive MBT. Pretty sure that result isn't really worth ~101 points
     
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  7. vicen85

    vicen85 Well-Known Member

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    Avatar's ODD works like Camor or TO TAG.
     
  8. Wildgit

    Wildgit Member

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    They are TAG Destroyer in the sense of LAV with 120mm cannon. They're "Tank Destroyers" in modern sense, not in WW2 sense.
     
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  9. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Considering it's basically a defensive mod with no access to marker shenanigans, I'd say it works towards its classification as "heavy".

    Although I myself, being a simple man, consider "standard TAGs" anything with 8/6 saves and a variation of HMG. BTS may vary though.
     
  10. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    yeah personally i think that TAGs only really come in 2 classes.

    MBTs with ARM8+, MHMG (or heavier), rocking in with usually at least 1 trick up their sleeve, be it, ARM 8/10, ODD, TO, HRMC ect.
    Under this classification they all have niche's the more expensive ones just come with extra kit, but that still leaves the more bare bones variants as MBTs. IE: Squalo, Guija, Lizard, Raicho ect

    Then the light TAGs, typically ARM6-7 with some form of mobillity rule, such as C+, Super Jump, Duo, MA1. but occasionally a survival mod/ army multiplier like Operator/Repeater or a heavier gun in the case of the Overdron.
    They are also typically far cheaper (outside the Sphinx and the Uhlan)

    Getting into the idea of TAG destroyer ect to me at least is more a definition of what "niche" each of the MBTs or Light TAGs offer. the main doctrine of how to use them in the game doesnt change IMO within those 2 classes, only how they achieve that doctrine
     
    #30 daboarder, Dec 18, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't have a marker state, and marker state is what makes Stealth TAGs. ODD or Mimetism (or my proposed Holo2) on a TAG are just fancy 'armor' that make you harder to hit in the first place. Marker state makes you impossible to hit until Discovered/Intuitively flamed.

    Well, US and UK tank destroyers in WW2 were lightly armored. It's really only the Germans and Russians who went with heavy armor on their Tank Destroyers. It was more a comment that 2/3rds of the TAG Destroyers are still ARM8 and 6-4MOV, while the Overdrons are only ARM6 and 4-4MOV.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's a heavy simplification of MBTs, it's not just training but the physical aspects varies greatly. The only thing in common between them (well besides that the Leopard, LeClerc and Challenger have classified armour so it doesn't show up on Wikipedia) is the main armament being roughly equal (Abrams has a version with smaller gun while the Russian tanks have larger bores). The Russian MBTs, for instance, are all light weight compared to the Abrams (the latter which is the heaviest).
    I think what you listed there is more equivalent of a cross-section of S7 TAGs. Armour varies greatly, but guns are roughly the same. A Raicho is an O-Yoroi is an Iguana is a Jotum.
    Depends if you mean FA1 or FA2. For FA1, 101 sounds about what I'd expect - possibly more since FA1 isn't just a HRMC, but also improves ARO, HPistol and the B1 EXP option. FA2 would make the Raicho significantly deadlier than Uhlan and pricier than Marut wouldn't be unreasonable.
     
  13. leigen_zero

    leigen_zero Morat Pacifist

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    @Section9 I like your tag classification there, definitely helpful in understand the role your tag should play on the field.

    I don't think Full Auto L1 (without an increase in cost) would really break the Raicho. It's already an expensive model in a faction that is made up of expensive models, might actually give some incentive to take it vs a sogarat and 2-3 more versatile miniatures
     
  14. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure L1 does not work in reactive turn.
     
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  15. leigen_zero

    leigen_zero Morat Pacifist

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    Correct, Full Auto L1 is basically +1B in active turn only (and also doesn't stack with any other burst MODs. Kind of like a reverse-neurocinetics
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    My bad. That actually makes the skill even more reasonable. *glares at the FA should be removed thread*
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Hey, I still think Full Auto is a cool skill. Not my problem that people can't grok a skill that does different things at different levels (when fireteams do different things at different levels...), I thought it was simple to explain.

    But FA2 would probably be too much on a TAG chassis. B6 MultiHMG and B2EXP AROs? ouch. And IIRC that 10 points was for FA2 on the Borac, so FA1 would probably be ~3 points. Regardless, 101 points for a Raicho with FA2 would be Too Cheap (IMO) and yet too expensive (in terms of what taking a Raicho would do to list building).
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's the L2 that I think has people all in a tizzy. Ditto with Fatality L2 vs. L1.
     
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  19. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    FA1 is +1 B, not +2. Am I missing something?

    Again, FA1 does not work in reactive turn.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    In all seriousness, whoever made those profiles had a real hard on for Nomads. That kind of partisan design is a problem...
     
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