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Yu Jing Fluff - Perception, Reality, Desire

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Devrailis, Mar 28, 2018.

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  1. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    You have gotten yourself very confused about things I said. I'm not sure I even know where to start with you here.

    Suffice it to say that's now how that works. It doesn't matter what the initial impetus was in respect to the terrible quality of the fluff produced or the game play outcomes produced or the distrust in the community produced. It was bad.

    I get to criticize these terrible outcomes regardless of your petty disagreement with my take on why CB initially started this mess in motion.
     
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  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Can't be bothered rationalising your own mess of contradictions?

    Imagine how the rest of us feel.

    I'm not sure what you're bothering with here, given you've been proven wrong with regard to both your claims about the setting and your claims about marketing theory.

    But, you do you I guess.

    Just wanted to give you a chance to try and straighten things out.
     
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  3. Antares

    Antares Well-Known Member

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    It's pretty clear that any counter argument is invalid to him. Might aswell talk to a wall. Just want to add that if I were a company I would neither listen nor care about a customer who declares any attempt at defending my decisions as plainly wrong because he knows better. There's not a single sign that this discussion will lead to a constructive outcome.

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  4. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    I guess the only things left now with regards to the actual topic are when the next book is going to "fix" this mess and how much of a shitshow the yj rpg book is going to be because of uprising.
     
  5. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing Political Work Department

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    Well, there's definitely a lot of different schools of thought on why Uprising was a bad thing, and why it was a good thing... there are those who support it as an inevitable setting development, as a change to the setting to prevent stagnation, but also those who see it from a game mechanics perspective of newly-opened 'design space' and a chance to play two different factions without giving a muck about reading the fluff. You've got people who criticize it based on it being a mechanical impact based on setting changes, based on sales-over-quality, based on bad reading of statistics. There are those criticizing it for its effect on the products they purchased for a game role that has now been declared invalid. There are those criticizing it for the content it brings into the setting such as genocide, for its failure to be consistent with earlier setting material, for the quality of the writing attempting to present the new material. And there are more besides, even the broad strokes of 'supporter' and 'critic' (or 'shill' and 'whiner') don't actually work, there are plenty of people who have a reason to support Uprising and a different one for criticizing it, both entirely valid and not in contradiction. We're a mixed bunch, on all sides, which is why we hadn't all settled on a postmortem agreement of the issues and potential solutions by page 15.

    I'm definitely in a different place than @Eldritch on Uprising. Speaking for myself the mechanical aspect of the JSA split has had minimal impact... I've only got a couple of Japanese units. My concerns are primarily about the setting of the game, the story that is being told, where I don't feel Uprising as presented has been a positive addition... and about the relations between CB as a company and its consumers, where I think there has been a breakdown that salted both the major and minor 'wounds' of Uprising and made things much more heated and contentious than they ever needed to be.

    Sorry to @Dude for stealing a line out of its context, but this perfectly encapsulates at least one criticism of the whole affair. You certainly can't make this Uprising omelette without breaking a few eggs, but you absolutely CAN without committing genocide. That's just a seasoning, and one that has a particularly unpleasant taste to boot, why not just go with fresh-cracked black pepper?



    I agree with you here. The Japanese Sectorial Army as it was, was a concession to the Japanese population of Yu Jing in an attempt to further integration. It instead became a force for insurrection. It, and any other Japanese-commanded military force, will now be too politically suspect. In the setting as it was written, it would be inconsistent to then have JSA units still in Yu Jing post-secession.

    But now you, or CB I guess, are in a bit of a difficult position. Is the setting as it was sacrosanct, to be respected above all? Because the whole discussion of the failures amongst the ISS in counterinsurgency and the Yanjing in terms of intelligence work is all about how those failures are ALSO inconsistent with the existing setting. For Uprising to work, people and institutions described as good at their jobs, as keeping tight control, need to lack tight control and fail at their jobs, not simply as individual instances but on an institutional scale.

    If the setting as it was were truly sacrosanct, then this wouldn't happen and Uprising would have been written to reflect that. If the setting is not truly sacrosanct, then Party hostility to post-Uprising Japanese military units can be changed as easily as Imperial Service competence.
     
  6. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Crunch

    Taking my JSA troops from vanilla: Yeah I'll live

    Telling me it doesn't matter: Yeah nah get fucked, I mad.

    Not doing anything in the short term to address the decrease in competitiveness: Why not? Are they stupid? Don't they care?

    Fluff

    Having the Japanese successfully bamboozle the Yuchinos and secede: Yeah I'll live

    Having the police force that is so monolithic it is literally the most visible armed force of Yu Jing right now, their only sectorial, caught completely off guard by an uprising from a population they are supposedly oppressively policing, to the extent that they are pearl harboured in 6 systems and soundly beaten in 5, then telling me this is congruent with how they have been portrayed and doesn't make them look comically stupid: Yeah nah get fucked, I mad

    Making a Yu Jing vs the Universe book, without including any Yu Jing: Why not? Are they stupid? Don't they care?
     
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  7. Antares

    Antares Well-Known Member

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    I too was at least hoping for an article adressing the concerns gathered here. This won't happen I'm afraid. Not now and not in the future. Time to move forward, where "things" (and certain reactions to these "things") hopefully will get better and more appealing to everyone. Back we can't go.

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  8. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Yeah this. Pretty much all of this.
     
  9. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    Probs the best summary of the thread and questions that will never be answered.
     
  10. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    The huanglong pretty much summarizes my feelings on the subject.

    Yu Jing got jack out of this entire affair, not even a dossier. Losing access to Xi because he was one of two characters left and Suny was too iconic, was pretty much the lighting Anakin on fire moment.
     
  11. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    If CB is going to take anything from this thread, and if the Warcors pass on anything, it is that a decent chunk of us who aren't dogmatically hateful (we know who you are) really just want some of the YJ perspective in the fluff to be released, want some word/idea what is coming to fill the holes in our army list.

    Honestly CB just taking some small actions would do a lot.
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    To be clear: NA2, aside from JSA, are terrific ways to hook players into multifaction. Depending on what you have, you enter in one or the other mercenary company, buy a bunch of extra stuff, and you are set... but that extra stuff makes you want to keep collection (possibly), so you expand to another faction.
    Also, StarCo with the Brigada link options gives those a lot of room to be used, add to that the Jaguars and Bandits... gee, that's most of the Corregidor 300pts box (which would be, otherwise, the worst 300pts box until now), it would only be better if instead of Tomcats it would had the SWC Alguaciles.

    YJ is, indeed, portrayed badly on Uprising. One could say that the "weakened" perception comes from achieving a single success in those six months, everything else being fails, Phyrric victories at most, or victories that a few days later ceased to be so.
    What cannot be denied is that YJ's playerbase has suffered a very high dent, taking ount nearly a fifth or its playerbase, at least. We shall see in the BoW campaign, and certainly I hope those "secret objectives", if they are introduced again after last year, have a reson to be so aside from distracting the players and clear the road for PanO.

    The problem with this is... well. Let me paraphrase Dogma here. If we are like a glass, that grows the more we grow (as a person, and in knowledge, not phisically), then the same amount of liquid won't be enough to fill us as much. So if what we get presented on the new book is simplistic and without any kind of real conclusions aside from "JSA gets its own nation, yay!" at the cost of painting all other factions either as vultures or comical prey... well...

    Plus, the game has attracted a lot of people who wanted a setting for "mature" audiences, not in themes presented, but in that it is close to the real world (greys everywhere, a system more or less balanced, etc...), a situation that the complexity of how the rulebook is written (I've had textbooks easier to study...) exacerbates.

    So yeah, it is quite easy to see a shattering of our suspension of disbelief, specially if what is presented is in the "Codex: JSA" style, without any kind of consequences, because this kind of things tend to point to a "in the next book, YJ is suddenly the top dog, everything went just as planned and now they can deploy the Invincible Army anywhere without restraint because of the JSA threat, mwahahahahahah".

    You forgot to spell it out in big letters: nuclear fallout, planet ruined, game over Humanity. Which in Infinity translates to: PanO and YJ neuter each other, CA laughs and conquers the Human Sphere, game over.

    For what I heard, the Spanish version is filled with orthographic and grammatical mistakes. And let us remember that, in Las Vegas, we could see Bostria's computer giving a system warning in galician...
    And with tons of words repetead by tons of tonnage... xD

    My Aleph unit was on vacation, getting a new coat of paint XD

    Still waiting on those 20 days of undeclared war without o-12 sanction here... Until then, your claim about internal consistency is on shaky grounds ;)
    I do agree that removing the JSA entirely from YJ has more sense than leaving isolated units. I just wish the Ikari company was more friendly to those models that saw more time in vanilla YJ (oniwaban instead of Ninja, Aragotos, etc...) instead of filling with Wu Ming, the Daiyokai (it has no sense to me to see that there... yes, it can be a "payment for services rendered", but.... meh) and the Tanko. And the PanO remotes, too.

    There are a lot of ways to kill a character without breaking the model's value, what you describe is pure lazyness.

    While I agree that this has been shown without enough skill and knowledge of how things work (with a heavy handwave of "I write whatever I want in my story", as transmitted by the most staunch defenders of the Uprising book...) I've been hoping for Interruptor to share the burden of the game so the RPG can go faster (or Modiphious stop using him as an excuse), and more voices, hopefully with more varied knowledge and ideas, will be added.

    I mean, there is one thing to direct a RPG game for a half dozen of friends. Presenting the setting for thousands of players all across the planet? More than any single person can hope to accomplish.

    Some of us are mad because some of the choices throw into the light that Corregidor has been abandoned for years (aside from the Bandit), and replacing it with StarCo would make people miss only the Wildcats fireteams... for a time (since the Riot Grrrrls! are little more expensive, and HI instead!).
    Frankly, giving some more fireteam options to Brigadas and Tomcats would alleviate a lot of that concerns, and having a look at Qapu and Merovingia (who was endlessly told it needs a few nudges here and there to become up to date again) would be seen as a sign of good faith.

    Nor can you throw the other position for the opposite intention, I'm afraid. You should take a day or so to cool down, because what you are writing seems to have sense only to you at this point :(

    The problem with this is the galician mindset: they win stare contests, the win by simply outlasting anything in their path. The spanish president is galician, and is the most obvious example of this mindset: everything thrown at him never made him flinch, not even allegedly have his name in a B-counts ledger of his political party.
    I have no doubt that CB's position on this "Uprising backfire" is to let it happen, ignore it as it never did, and keep going, "knowing" it will vanish in time.

    But within reason, not a "YJ rocks, the rest of the universe suxxxxs!!!" kinda book, please. No "Codex: Yu Jing" here.
     
  13. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    Yes, and it doesn't need to be a book.

    They could do 1 article.

    One.

    Just give a 'situation as it stands for YJ now that the Uprising is over - how they plan to move forward'
     
  14. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    +1 "My concerns are primarily about the setting of the game" and the community, Sayin it softly, This uprising hurted a lot of sensitivities and it will have a localized negative impact on the Yujing side.

    And maybe in real life, you can't make an omelet without actually brake any eggs. But surely you can make an omelet without breaking all of the eggs or breaking the eggs of your neighbor.

    They've could had aproached the seccesion in a hundred of ways, but the brutality of this rupture was aimed to be ultimate without any kind of ammends. And the only loser of this whole process is Yujing. Now We have a prison continent for japanese etnical citycens. We are genocides, we are incompetent, an we are as black and evil as cursed obsidian.

    My point is was all of this really necessary? And don't give my that crap about designing space or open space for new sectorials. there is almost infinite space out there!



    Don't expect any kind of fixing. This seems to be set on collision course for future events

    Next campaign is probably preconfigured for yujing to loose even more. Acording to Uprisng we had a colony in Dawn against Ariadna claims. After the war, the map show that YJ had control of over 2/3 of the cynmeria continent and JSA has the other 1/3 with some concessions to other nations (Ariadna Just was caught up in this mess)

    Now, YJ has all the factions against, Now we are a caricaturised evil, we also have lost a lot of players to the Seccesionist cause and some players are angry and want to boycott CB somehow by not playing campaigns.

    How are we going to defend our claims on dawn?

    We should be trying to organice some stand-up or at least trying to boost morale.
     
    #1214 Mc_Clane, Apr 22, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  15. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    When they said JSA was splitting I think I literally said "Finally!". But there are a few things I think they bungled.


    As I and many others said cutting a void in Yu Jing and leaving it as that was bad. IA should probably have been the next sectorial. I know a lot of things like inspiration go in to the order of things but they should have made a point of this.


    Taking the entire Japanese line (excepting ninja) out of Vanilla was a mistake imo. The possibility of a small faction of loyal Japanese has advantages:

    SO COOL. I might play that in the RPG although I don't like playing a different ethnicity I might try anyways.

    It would add VANILLA ONLY troops something that most factions are going to lack and imo need.

    Not be as annoying.


    Hopefully they at least do a hero for this.
     
  16. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    The Uprising has stirred a lot of strong emotions from people for a variety of reasons (outlined quite succinctly by @the huanglong above). Some of that criticism has been well made and at other times people's emotions on both sides of the discussion have got the better of them.

    So, if you feel like Uprising has let you down then please take a moment to read this article: https://kotaku.com/five-things-i-didn-t-get-about-making-video-games-unti-1687510871

    Yes, it is a slightly different gaming medium but many of the points are transferable. There are many reasons that a game may turn out the way it did that we as consumers would never see.

    This doesn't mean we can't be critical of the product that is delivered but we should understand that we don't have the whole picture and in that context should be willing to try to see the perspective of the other side. Everyone getting entrenched into positions opposing each other such as @Eldritch and @AdmiralJCJF aren't helping anyone. You guys need to start seeing where you agree rather than where you disagree as you both have a common cause (short version, of course CB pay attention to marketing as they are a professional company but equally I hold that they believe in attempting to protect their narrative - whether that has been a success or not is a different matter but I certainly believe it was their intent).

    Equally we can be critical in ways that highlight issues with how the event has been handled in a calm a polite way that gets the message across to CB without being a direct attack on anyone (which is deeply unlikely to ever get them to listen):

    • Continuing to sell models as Yu Jing when the product cycle says you know they won't be used for that purpose, specifically when doing previews due to lead time but also in the online store, etc.
    • Selling JSA models as Yu Jing on your store even after they are their own army.
    • The "Shikami issue"
    • Removal of JSA profiles from vanilla without any sort of replacement (this didn't have to be one for one but even a couple of token gestures such as increasing the ava of Kanren to "counter the insurgency" and some flashpulse bots "dragged out of storage to get some more non-lethal weapons on the streets" would've made a world of difference to how this event was perceived)
    • Telling players that they didn't use certain profiles and if they had personal experience that said otherwise they were wrong
    • Telling players that they weren't losing anything when they blatantly were (and could list all the ways in which they were) and then telling them they were wrong (again)
    • Not telling players when or how all (well, any to be precise) these holes in their rosters are going to get filled. This was made worse with generalised statements about making design space which just left things hanging
    • Not apologising to players who now can't use their miniature collections. Yes, I absolutely expect CB to apologise for this as technically they're breaking the law - https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act (the goods they are still selling on their store are no longer fit for the purpose for which they were, and are continuing to be, sold). So it really is in their best interest to be considerate to their customers before those customers start looking at other options available to them
    • Failing to acknowledge the impact this was likely to have (see any sort of research on the psychology of loss aversion - ) or treat your customers as if you have any compassion for their situation (please note, I'm not saying they are heartless machines driven by nothing but greed, merely that they have failed to show any real acknowledgement of where they may have made mistakes or treated some of their customers poorly).
    There are also issues specifically with the narrative that have caused clear dissonance for a number of people:

    • The ISS and Zanying have been portrayed as one of the premiere intelligence services in the sphere and yet failed to notice anything about the Uprising which was a single point of failure event - There may be other mitigating circumstances that can come in here so if this was the only thing it would probably get a pass but in the context of everything else there was no chance it would be given the benefit of doubt
    • The Ikari Company, who dislike the Kuge more than they dislike Yu Jing kept mysteriously quiet (along with every other power in the sphere) despite the fact they could all have made far more from informing Yu Jing both in terms of goodwill from the second power and from a straight up profitability viewpoint
    • The PanO 20 day war

    There are probably more but that's the main list off the top of my head as it pertains to Uprising specifically. I think there was also a degree of lingering ill will over the handling of the Wotan campaign as well. Again, I'm not saying there was any malicious intent there but certain aspects of the campaign were not communicated well, such as how the fiction around the consulate bore no relation to what any of the players believed they were fighting for. That's a whole other topic though so I won't go into detail but merely leave it at what I've already written.

    Ultimately though I think there has been a loss of goodwill from the handling of Wotan and a far more significant loss through the course of Uprising. I know from a personal point of view I've gone from having started branching out into JSA and Combine from vanilla YJ just prior to Uprising and enthusing over the game world and fluff to potential new players to stopping any new purchases for any faction and letting other players drag me into systems they play over me bringing them to Infinity. I should've been the perfect customer as I was already making the transition into a second JSA army and yet instead the entire process has left me looking at other systems to play instead. That's a pretty sad state of affairs and from reading the posts of other players, old and new, I know I'm not the only one.
     
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  17. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    @BenMoss You can fail in the details of the came, it can feel sloppy, too simple, had bugs or it can be not so popular for the average player, put there base concepts and directives that tells us what had been in the designers mind

    In this case this are some
    • They wanted a full breakup (just no JSA troops on vanilla, no yujing loyalists amongst the japanese, no neutral parties...)
    • They wanted to have no posible return or amend (Yujing making mass murder)
    • They wanted it to be polarized. Or you are pro JSA or You are against (it seems kuge brainwashing was uncannily effective. It seems 100% of japanese supported the uprising, choosing death before stay in Yujing. even if it was founded in terrorism or assassination. There wasn't any mention to other positions inside population)
    • They wanted to portray Yujing as evil (again, mass murder at least 2 times)
    • They wanted it to be a permanent scar on Yujing (kuramory being a prison martial law continent)
    • They wanted for JSA to be the rising star (for obvious reasons)
    • The war was over before it started, before anything was published, that was a marketing decision only. they could had made it happen in phases. "Let's release the JSA box, then an Event pack, somewhere in the middle changes in the JSA lists, then lets make something during ITS season and then sell the outcome" but no, just a bomb and braze yourselves.
    • They didn't care about the effects over the yujing community (Not any kind of tease or hint of what is going to come, not any kind of compensation, nor any kind of simpathy for yujing. this uprising could had been dealt in a thousand ways but they launched it as a bomb because they wanted to be viral. because you know... there is no bad maketing. old players leave, new players come...
    • ....
    The blow it dealt to the Yujing community without any kind of mercy, and it even digs inside the open wound.
    They choosed it to be this blunt, there is no other explanation. The little inconsistenies or the evilness of Yujing are so little in comparison...
     
  18. Eldritch

    Eldritch Well-Known Member

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    I would like to point out I'm not the one attacking the posts of the other because I believe its "inconsistent" to agree with me on some things but disagree on other largely tangential things.

    When I said his disagreement with me was "petty" that sort of entrenched refusal to accept that we broadly are in almost full agreement is exactly what I was referring to.
     
  19. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    You forgot:

    *laughing at your paying customers when they are trying to communicate their legitimous grievances
     
  20. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    I do say watching this really makes me long for Tagline.
    I really liked how Tagline worked and feel it was very good for the game.
     
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