Now you are mixing up hacking AROs and the requirements for them with what non-hackers can declare. Hackers are able to declare hacking attacks at targets in their ZOC and Hackable area regardless of LOF. Thats the hacking rules. This is then comboing with SS2 meaning that hte hackers can delay (As per what I quoted) and then declare all applicable skills after the second short skill. Because they are hackers this means they may declare a hack after the second short skill, no other troop can do this
Yeah, looks like you're right here. I still reckon they need to pull the 'Delay ARO' element of Sixth Sense out of the Effects box or otherwise make it completely clear that it's independent of the 'Targeted by an Attack' requirement. I think it's terrible as is, @RobertShepherd has the right idea about ruling that Reset being a legal second skill on the grounds that you should check if it's legitimate at the Effects stage (ie. 8) of order resolution.
Sadly on that same page is this: All details and choices related to the execution of a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, or Entire Order Skill must be specified when it is declared. Its why you can't declare shoot when someone moves inside smoke or shuffles feet before turning the corner if either in zoc. Not happy bout this so hope it's wrong but cannot declare skill if it's currently not legal.
Point 1. I agree with, I just thought there had been a ruling the other way, happy to be wrong about that. Point 2. I think once you start applying sixth sense to hold ARO's through repeaters it's not 'for hacking only' anymore, that's kinda my point. Letting sixth sense function in that manner through it is what makes me regard it as being used without reservations.
People declare skills that are not legal pretty regularly (optimistic use-it-or-lose-it hacking AROs) but I see you point. Damn. *sigh* this goddamn game sometimes.
You can't do this. You aren't allowed to make invalid declarations and it's a distinct and separate rule to the "revert to Idle" rule. "A Skill declaration is not valid if the Requirements for their execution are not met. For example, a CC Attack cannot be performed against a figure that is not in base to base contact with the attacker." you can't declare something that's not valid there's no allowance for you to do so in the rules, while the rules are sadly less than explicit that all declarations must be valid a basic understanding of English and permissive rulesets makes it abundantly clear. CB specifically used different language in reference to learning a skill's requirements are not met later on, describing those as "null" rather than "not valid" and specifically citing that they become Idle in that case and that case only. You can never declare a skill if you know at the time of declaration that you don't meet the requirements of it.
to be fair at this stage it sounds like not even @ijw is sure it is supposed to work this way anymore. clarrification is required
I feel like the answer is you cannot declare delay with ssl as they do not have them in your zoc. Hacking area also is not what gives you the ability to aro with hacking programs through a repeater. It is repeaters that explicitly allows you to declare aros with hacking programs in their zoc. Because of this and its explicit nature, it should not allow any other ability that references zoc besides programs.
Actually yeah, I agree. In the same way, they can also react with Hacking Programs to enemy Orders declared in the Zone of Control of the Repeater as if it were their Zone of Control. and In the Reactive Turn, Sixth Sense L1 allows its user to delay his ARO declaration until after the declaration of the second Short Skill of the enemy inside his Zone of Control. (emphasis mine)
Nah mate. The first effect says that hacking program are allowed in the repeaters zoc as if your own. It doesn't say that all actions are allowed. You cannot delay because delay isnt a hacking program so the model isnt in zoc.
Thats kinda my point. Just edited so its clear I agree with you lol :) But also just sixth sense says you can delay against orders in your own ZoC, whereas the repeater rule says you can react with hacking programs in the repeater's ZoC as if it was your own ZoC.
But delay has certain requirements. If those are requirements are not met, then instead of delay you have forfeited your aro. Repeaters aro allowance is very explicit. It must be a hacking program and the target is inside its zoc. If it is a hacking program then you may do it as if it's in your own. Otherwise the model is not in your zoc. So you cannot declare delay, the model is not in your zoc and the repeaters rules hadn't kicked in yet (you haven't declared a hacking program) Didn't realized, lol.
IJW knew how it was supposed to work until he was presented with the balance issue of unopposed hacks. So it sounds more like an issue of game balance than an issue of understanding how the rules work.
First, you need an EVO hacker for the Coordinated order if you intend to use a hacking program. Second, 2 KHD and a sacrificial, hackable troop that can be in a coordinated order... but needs to be targeatable by all units! So if you use a non-hacking remote, you are forcing the enemy to commit an ARO with all of his hackers, H+ and AHD, but not the KHD. Also, the costs... So I would do a coordinated order with the EVO and 2 KHD, the EVO will declare Breakwater as his second short order, and the KHD will, thanks to Stealth if they were cybermasked or whatever camo level they might had, declare an attack B1 (one of them B2) program attack unopposed against those hackers that don't have Sixth Sense (the ones who do have it, have the option to delay ARO so they force the enemy KHD to target them). The second effect is not an AND limiter, effects are OR adders. Since this started because the Repeater entry states that for ARO purposes the Hackers answer "like the ZoC of the repeater were his own", Sixth Sense N1 effect of "you can delay ARO against all orders made inside your ZoC" allows you to delay hacking ARO against enemy hackable troops inside of your Hacking Zone. Mind you, my personal opinion is that it doesn't work this way, but RAW it can be read in that way.
Technically it's not 'if it's in your Hacking Area you can delay' it's 'your ZOC and the ZOC of any Repeaters you can use'. If you were inside an enemies repeater and they activated a Hacker they'd be inside your Hacking Area but you couldn't delay vs them. Edit: turns out I'm wrong technically the Enemy Hacker isn't actually part of your Hacking Area* they're just eligible to be Hacked. So saying 'you can delay inside your Hacking Area' is correct. Interestingly, this means that WHDs which are inside an Enemy's Repeater's ZOC can't delay when an Enemy Hacker Activates as technically they're not in the Hacking Area. The Hacking Area is explicitly "Hacker's Zone of Control (ZC) [and] also the Zones of Control of all usable Repeaters."
If this stuff ends up being the justification for securitate not getting a cost reduction come June, I'm going to be very upset with all of you.
Having headaches now. Specially since I reviewed a little the "I use Engineer/doctor on the same target to check if I can recover 2 STR/W at once". Pouring over it with a fine comb says that RAW yes, it frigging works that way, but RAI is presumed to be only one...). If this keeps going on I will end giving away my miniatures in despair >.<
@inane.imp Enemy hackers that you can hack because of being near their repeater are considered to be within your hacking area, as otherwise you couldn't use programs with a range of "hacking area" on them. The rules don't state it explicitly, but it's the only interpretation that allows hacking to function.
