I mean we probs aren't due for a book for at least 2 years now so anything could happen. I hope when they say blackjack they mean taskmaster/kriza plus since we are the HI faction.
Still bothers me that the AVA is high enough to represent essentially limitless recruiting capacity. At such defection rate, the programme would shut down and all Wu Ming or would-be Wu Ming immediately executed. (I mean, AVA 5 is already pushing it for ISS AVA)
Now, if IA gets Hac Tao, I'd love it if Shooting Stars were implemented with sufficient equipment that they hit roughly the same points cost as Hac Tao. What a relatively slow and plodding army needs (and IA is looking like they'll fit the bill) is for their high-end flankers to be able to hide in points. Is the missing 1/4th of the army a Hac Tao waiting to murderate from the front with superior equipment or is it a Shooting Star ready to drop in inside your DZ or from the table edge? Here's some theory regarding what could make Shooting Star reach 70 points: Brute Force. Hsien stats and weapons with Superior Airborne Deployment. Yes, that's a 14-14-14-4-6 stealth murder machine landing on 20 with the help of a hacker. No, that doesn't mean MSV2 and yes I'm estimating AD5 to be worth 10 points more than MSV2 on a high-end HI and this is probably an exaggeration. Sneakiness. Shang-Ji stats with fairly exotic weapons more tuned to the close range spectrum and Airborne Infiltration LX. No, I don't think this is likely since I don't think this one is designed to be sneaky, but this is exactly the stuff that'll completely mess your opponent up when they notice the missing points. Quality. Wu Ming stats with high-end exotic gear like ODD, mobility enhancer of some sort (probably Super Jump). Deflection by default would be... very interesting. Seriously, the gear needed to make a 30-odd model reach 70 is fairly high. I guesstimate AD4 to be priced well shy of camo+infiltration regardless of base soldier. I haven't actually examined it closer, but take a Daofei and upgrade it with at least 20 points of gear. Yu Jing developed the S5 ARM 5 HI armour (and Pan-O stole it), breaching unit should be doable using Hac Tao armour as base Shang-Ji isn't the next generation HI armour for line infantry, is it? I thought next generation line infantry armour has already been implemented on the Zuyong, effectively replacing the custom-fitted and expensive to make Wu Ming armour and Shang-Ji armour being the superior version of said armour.
The background on this is pretty messy because it is a mixture of trying to tie a product discontinuation (the original bird-beak style Invincible) in to the background where the Shang Ji was replacing it, but then somewhere along the way CB realized a 40 point "line trooper" HI was daft and brought about the Zuyong without really ever changing the Shang Ji from being the advanced next step in main-line basic power armour. This is why the Shang Ji really needs a retcon in the background department, because it effectively replaced the old Invincible back in 2nd Edition (because no one took those as they were basically just shittier ORCs). When the Zuyong came along, they actually replaced the Shang Ji (alongside the improved Wu Ming) as Yu Jing's best "cheap" core HI. So instead of the Shang Ji looking like an improvement as it was supposed to, it looks like an inefficient waste of a profile that had all its neat tricks and efficiencies bled out to every N3 HI. So basically, they need to drop the line that it was the replacement in the works at the time of the bird beak (because clearly the Zuyong usurped that the day it came in) and retcon its background to make it the IA's primary special operations regiment or something. Maybe plonk ODD and infiltration on it? If the Daofei is getting that retcon, having another midfield HI would be nice (especially since we also lost our only ODD HI recently as well).
One good thing that comes from the loss of the JSA is the loss of the really cheap HI profiles. This gives CB an option to drop the Zuyong a couple more points to be usable in IA, without running into the problem of a crapton of HI in vanilla. Points range would be ~25-37. I'd hope that the IA includes the Daofei as THE HI skirmisher. If we're getting an AD3+ HI, I'd be OK with not having access to Tiger Soldiers (instead, WB gets Tigers as the example of the old-style army). This would let the Shooting Star (Liuxing?) have roughly Tiger stats but with 2W. I'm not sure I want an AD HI to cost 70-odd points, that's a big chunk of change. You're right, we do manage to get a S2 HI up to ARM5 with the Hac Tao. I want an ARM6 assault breacher unit. Something that can blow in a door/wall, take a pounding, and still kill the dude on the back side. But I suspect this will be the 'other' Su Jian transformer. Something with a different weapons loadout. Sounds like a really cool idea, what did you have in mind for weaponry? I'd hope that the Zanshi are not AVA5 or more, I'd like them to be no more than AVA4. I assume that the mercenary "Wu Ming" entry also includes people in power armor that aren't from the Wu Ming program, but just using the Wu Ming statline. Or using the Wu Ming name.
Only way to drop the Zuyong cost is to either make them Frenzy or to remove the dual Breaker Pistols. I kind of like the concept of the dual breaker pistols so I hope not. Arguably, this does open up for a Yu Jing take on the Haramaki, however - or rather a HI "warband" (as opposed to Ariadna's warband "HI"). Impetuous, close range spray-and-pray guns, smoke grenades. It's possible that Yu Jing might now gain access to Eclipse Grenades. I was initially writing something along those lines, but then I realized that Tigers and Shooting Stars would still need to co-exist in vanilla and due to the higher discount that HI enjoy over MI, we'd likely see Shooting Stars take over Tigers' role completely in vanilla. End result is that Shooting Star would still have to be sufficiently different from Tigers. Overloading them with abilities is one way to guarantee them being different and would also put them in the same category as Hac Tao. The other option is to make them very distinct from Tigers, but still in the roughly sub-40 category, and that's a lot harder because of the way Tigers are currently constructed (they're essentially 1-w HI with mimetism). That said, I think it's likely we'll get something that's essentially Zuyong with AD3. Bland, boring, disappointingly mediocre idea drought, but probably balanced. OOoh, a new REM PRES HI would be sweet. Those tend to have neat features that merits the S5 size without the weird "it's less advanced, but it actually isn't" that Taskmasters/Kriza have got going. I haven't got a clue what it would be, what niche it could fill, but still. (Simply blowing a hole in the wall and breach-entry can be more than sufficiently simulated by simply adding Engineer and D-Charges to a Zuyong along with Zero-G or Multiterrain and Yu Jing would suddenly have the most competent space-boarding unit in the game considering other factions use MI with similar gear for that. Yeah... but why then go through the trouble of using exactly the same unit name and fluff? Would it not make more sense to make a new unit that you could slap different gear on? Besides the obvious and rather disappointing nature of Ikari and StarCo being the Mix And Match Merc All Star factions that let's you Play With Models You Love In New* Ways(tm) * New refers to paint scheme, not playstyle. Terms and restrictions apply.
You'll need some AD6 for that. AD5 only means "end up anywhere in your DZ if you fail PH roll. as opposed to near table edge". No +3 to PH. Edit: or you mean we actually need a new level of AD? Point taken. On Yan Huo Engineer: I'm at loss here. What would be its purpose? "Piloting" Nasmat fixing others without having to pay for separate warm body?
Perhaps tangential to the discussion, one thing to note from Uprising, directly relevant to the place of Zhanshi in the sectorial, is that we get a little bit of (vastly incomplete) information about the Yu Jing order of battle. In the fighting on Kuraimori, we get the 2nd Division of Invincibles, from the 8th Invincible Army... that fits my understanding, which I think has been common, of the Invincible Army as an entirely separate entity, though it does tell us that the Invincible Army program of upgrades bears the same name as the designation for what is probably a corps/group army made up of Invincibles. We also get mention of the famed 7th Division of Invincibles from the Red Banner Army. This is more notable to me, since it seems to show that Invincible divisions do not exist solely in 'Invincible Army' corps units, but are also attached to Banner Armies, which gives a much better justification for Invincibles working closely with Banner light infantry such as the Zhanshi and their support groups. It could also explain how troops who are 'Invincibles' might not be in the Invincible Army sectorial.. Daofei as the '1st Division of Invincibles of the White Banner Army', or what have you. Ideally CB designs the sectorial to be able to do both, represent forces from an Invincible Army corps, or an Invincible Banner Army division, by having Zhanshi as cheap options for orders and doctor/engineer, but with more expensive HI equivalents. I've always been torn there, there are the obvious 'combat engineer kit' of D-Charges and maybe a Deactivator and/or mines, and not thinking CB will really do it leads to dumb ideas like 'Nano-Entrenching Tools: grants every Invincible in list Sapper during Deployment', but costs add up. More serious ideas essentially want the unit to have a few short ranged weapons, a Heavy Flamethrower for 'clearing vegetation' and an anti-materiel weapon for breaching structures (a T2 Boarding Shotgun seems the fit for the role, but probably makes little sense in-setting). The unit has link options, possibly one in a Core or Haris of Zuyong, slowing down the link but giving it a more durable unit to take point and a lot of short-ranged deterrence while the Terracottas handle objectives and mid/long-range engagements.
Nope, I don't play with or against AD5 enough, I just got the rule wrong. (the smiles on the site is a mess to find) Not sure I'd call an impetuous HI that's not great at CC and needs LOF to act offensively optimized simply due to having smoke. If I had the helm, I'd make sure they aren't linkable and design them to be attractive without links - something that nearly all impetuous 20+ point troops desperately need to see table time (at which point they kind of become OP)
Well, I don't really want Frenzy, but some double-checking of where we are rounding the points is probably in order. Ugh. That's not what I want, because I can't see anyone taking Tigers in vanilla if they can get Shooting Stars for the same cost. Saw some interesting things mentioned in the line of 'Character Su Jian', things like Sapper and an HMG in the combat mode, but losing both of those in Mobility and only packing a SMG, for example. Yeah, that'd be the Zuyong Gongcheng, which I think would be just about mandatory for the Invincible Army. Well, actually, the Yisheng needs the power armor more than anyone else, since you can't medevac someone with a higher PH than you. (Either that or the IA doc needs Baggage as a rule) It's in-hcaracter marketing for the troopers that aren't actually Wu Ming. Besides, what do the "Wu Ming" mercenaries not have that you'd want to give them? Superior Combat Jump used to give a +3, IIRC. Old rules show up at the most inconvenient times.
I'd use them. Tigers are super cost efficient for the amount of havoc they can unleash if you knock a hole for them to tear into with a 25pt boarding shotgun. WIP 14 AHD that pop up behind you and near your TAGs is also going to still be a thing. And there's still something to be said for Mimetism locking down in suppressive fire in the opponent's backline, it's a huge pain in the ass to turn around and try to do something about.
Invencible "Yonggan Shizi" (Brave Lion) M:10-5 CC:15 BS:13 PH:13 WIP:13 ARM:5 BTS:3 W:2 S:5 weapons: MK12 AP. Heavy Pistol, Knife Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun, knife Heavy Shotgun, Light Flamethrower, knife, Haris Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, knife TinBot B. Skills: Haris/Duo. Special Haris with 2-1 Shan Ji/ Zuyong. Courage/ SxtS1, FwdD2/MchD, Mimetism/ FllA1 Equipment: MV1/Sensor/VsrX There's a idea for an super heavy assault IP. Medium weapons with possibilites to go forward. Perhaps without extra equipment or/and skills to reduce the cost. Sorry for that shitty pic, I wanted an idea about how it could look like.
In all honesty, knocking Zuyong points down a bit is as easy as giving them an SMG profile to act as link filler. SMG+Chain-colt should work out to a large enough point drop to get 'em to the 25 point range. Add in some cheap link-filler options (and possibly a strong point-man option) and the core link will work quite nicely. I do admit that I'm not really a fan of the twin breakers at this point, but mostly for aesthetic reasons (since it is weird to see it as a feature on our bog-standard line HI but not on our elite spec-ops units). Were it up to me, I'd replace all the extraneous CCWs on our high-end HI with twin breaker pistols and remove them from Zuyong to save points. Makes more sense for elite stuff to have the funky guns and line troops to get the bog standard gear. If breaker pistols were a common feature of Yu Jing troopers, I would probably feel otherwise, but right now the Zuyong getting them while things like the Daofei and Hac Tao don't feels odd and I'd rather see the one profile (Zuyong) changed to be in line with the others (especially to save on points). And though I'm not a fan of the loophole, at this point I think Wu Ming deserve to grab Frenzy to make them more viable as a core link (without needing to rely on a Kuang Shi horde) for ISS. With the Domaru and Haramaki gone, we have a low-end HI gap to fill and with both Zuyong and Wu Ming not really being popular choices in vanilla, I'd lean in to making them more relevant in their sectorials with some tweaks. Zuyong dropping to ARM3, losing the breaker pistols, and picking up some cheap options (SMGs, chain rifles, flamethrowers, etc.) would be ideal for them. 25 point or less HI are well within reach and should be something Yu Jing is capable of at this point (especially if they want an HI-heavy force to work). Meanwhile, grabbing Frenzy for Wu Ming to give them the old sectorial link discount would help differentiate them from the Zuyong (as they both sort of fill the same design space now). Making both of them able to form strong core links without bending over backwards would help make Yu Jing lists feel heavier without having to rely on our 5-point line troopers so often (though I still want to see IA get their own cheap line trooper to replace the lost Keisotsu, since an 8-9 point order with a decent ARO is really needed to make heavy lists work, as we can see with the ISS). But that is all pretty wishful thinking at this point and I doubt we'll be seeing a redesign of either in the wake of the separation. As for the Shooting Star, my current hope is that it finds a niche that isn't the Tiger's and that they strengthen the Tiger's niche a bit (making it a more useful drop-in specialist). The Shooting Star should trend toward high-end attack unit, like a Daofei alternative (ideally hitting that 50-60 point range). In my mind, all of its profiles should be sporting a heavy weapon. Drop Full Auto L2 on it and make it all about hitting hard and fast. My ideal trio of loadouts would be Spitfire, Heavy Rocket Launcher, and maybe a MULTI Rifle+Panzerfaust as its "cheap" option. Maybe give all the profiles nanopulsers as well (always popular on elite Yu Jing HI). Then for Tigers I'd get them a KHD option in the main profile and then two off-shoot profiles (each at AVA 1) for a stand-alone Engineer and a stand-alone Doctor. Now the Tiger (and its Yisheng and Mech-engineer variants) become our main drop-in specialists. Actually... Thinking on the IA AD theme. How would people feel about Yu Jing getting their own AI Beacon (either a loaner from Aleph to make it IA only, or their own at AVA 1 in vanilla and AVA 2 in IA). Seems to me that with Keisotsu going away, you could make an argument for Yu Jing having a thing for an unreliable order base (like Kuang Shi). So it may be neat to explore that line with another form of "unreliable" order that drops on to the field. If nothing else, the arrival of the IA being preceded by a bunch of air drops from Tigers, Shooting Stars, and AI beacons setting up a local battlenet would be a cool visual to explore.
Wishlisting here, things I'd like to see in the Invincible Army: The first HI with a Multi-Sniper. I don't particularly like Multi-Snipers but I think it could be cool to get that claim to fame now that HI snipers exist with Ayyar and Blackjacks. A spin-off Remote troop of the Karakuri or Su Jian tech. Either make them in line with Unidron Batroids or Dakini where they are 13-20-ish points elite cheerleaders, or have them closer in line to the Su-Jian but a toolbox HI Hybrid specialist. Something to fill in the 40-ish point gap of Karakuri but preferably with Sensor. Think in between a Weibing and a Su-Jian, with less armor but more available actions. Chain Rifle, some limited ammo weapon like a Flammenspeer or DEP, and an option Mk 12 or Heavy Shotgun Option I'm kind of Neutral on Zhanshi. Don't particularly want them in IA, but wouldn't mind seeing them even if I agree with the sentiment that it doesn't seem to fit with the fluff or original pitch. I would rather avoid more S5 HI. I'm getting tired of them, I don't like fitting them in my case.
Oh man. IA could go in so many ways. I do LOL at the lamenting of profiles which are "bland" but balanced. I'd really rather those people didn't get the way because thats how we end with other game systems (TM) fucking "incredible amazing blood missiles of blood" which are way better than other factions missiles because balanced is boring. In terms of order generators, its boring but IA could have increased AVA of chaiyi and baggage bots to provide cheap orders. This would be a much better balance than trying to trim the shit of HI or giving IA some filthy cheap LI (or relying on Zhanshi), but ya, it'l be a bit boring sorry. Very fluffy though, representing the extra baggage a HI force might be bringing along. I think the niche a shooting star could fit is a daofei style aggressive model with great stats and weapons and a special rule like superior AD to make tactically dropping on the board an actual reliable method (think PH14+3), since 90% of AD4 troops just walk in right now. For other new profiles I would definitely like to see some fast units, either super mobile heavy infantry or rem-pres style units which replace the aragoto in vanilla and can form duo in IA. Providing fast attack flanking and specialists. I think zuyong could use a link filler profile and then they'd be good. Depending on what shang ji became it would be great if you could mix zuyong with other units in IA, so the signature of IA would be punchy HI formed in a 5 man with the cheaper Zuyong. Speaking of punchier, Shang JI could literally become anything. But I think they could become the elite infantry of IA with high stats, forming mixed links with Zuyong and bringing the big guns or being hacker specialists, tinbot and special profiles. How you differentiate them from the other elites in vanilla is a bit of a tough question.
I'm fairly certain with the textured green surfaces on the supposed shooting star artwork that it will get a defensive bit of gear, and I am hoping that given Tigers already have mimetism, that it will be Albedo. It fits with the shooting Star Aesthetic and would be super cool and unique. I would feel like we had regained some lost ground if we had a troop that could fuck up these optimized new mixed visor links.
Fucking yes! We need to take a step back after guardian, fatality 2 and full auto. I'm happy if it's my faction Also yes! Anything they add should be about making the Zuyong core a better buy than a Riot Grrrl core. Weibings or Yaopu in links with better AVA is a good start.
I don't think they need to be better than riot grrl core. The grrrl's have their niche. But a mixed zuyong with a yaopu/chaiyi and a shang Ji could certainly be a versatile 5 man link which still weighs in at less than 130-140 points. And thats what I'd like is the zuyong forming the backbone of the army with maybe a sniper profile added as a shang JI (with mimetism like the druze sniper profile could be nice buff) or a spitfire shang Ji to really define how the link is used. Then the rest of the army could be individual stars and duos and you could have some really good 10-12 order lists. A 3 zuyong, chaiyi and 50ish shang ji weighs in at 150 points. An extra chaiyi or baggage leaves 140 points to spend on 4 models. Leaving you space to spend on average 35 points, which can buy you some very nice units. Eg. 2 specialists around 15-25. A 60 point heavy hitter like yan huo and a 40 point 2nd attack piece. Looks to be good force which emphasises heavy infantry without ALL 10 models being heavy infantry. I think 7-8 is a good compromise there.
