That is precisely the problem though, these questions only come up because of specific scenario interactions and you are mistakenly trying to apply them at a wider "general rule set" level.
Well, it's not like the scenario rules say "This one rule works differently in this scenario" like they do with, say, LoL in Decapitation/Hunting Party. They're saying "The rules always work like this, and this is how those rules interact with this scenario." And the way it interacts with the scenario changes fairly arbitrarily, is my point, unless there's something I'm missing.
For the record, I remember someone was complaining on these forums that his TOs disallowed Martial Arts usage on console, so there's that.
And that TO made an incorrect call. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/...questions-1-unanswered/?page=8#comment-969500
I look at it that MA works for the user Mods as the user is engaged in CC. The opponent Mods do not matter either way as the antenna cannot do anything. At no point in that exchange though are you attempting to put a status on the antenna (except for damage which is specifically allowed by the scenery rules). Again Guided requires a target in the Targeted state. As scenery can not enter that state (it is explicit that it applies to Troopers onyl as previously noted) the Guided firing mode can not be used. While they have similarities, they are not analogous situations.
@DukeofEarl There's nothing, however, that says that Martial Arts gets to work on non-troopers but Targeted can't. They're both working by implication as the scenario rules allow scenery to be targeted by attacks. Martial Arts says it only works on troopers, and we can say "Oh, well, but since you can CC attack scenery in this mission that should apply as well." Targeted says "the trooper" can enter the state under the following conditions... but in these scenarios scenery can be targeted with Forward Observer etc.
For purposes of the scenario-specific Designated state, which has nothing to do with being in the Targeted state.
You can target Scenery Items with Forward Observer (or any other BS Attack) all you want, it's just that they only take damage if it's anti-materiel.
Look at MA as if there are two targets of the skill the user and the opposing trooper. The opposing trooper mods do not land as there is no opposing trooper in this situation. The user mods can be used though as you are a trooper using CC Attack. The line in the Designate Antenna skill "The Designate Antenna Skill can be replaced by the Forward Observer Special Skill for troops that have it, applying their rules and requirements to obtain the same effect on this mission" would probably be better served with a second comma after requirements. As written it allows you to use FO to obtain the Designated effect. It says nothing about the Targeted effect or any other possible effects of the normal FO skill. Additionally, the mission specifically allows the Designated State. It at no point calls out anything about the Targeted state (required for Guided) being allowed. This is important as the Scenery Rules state "players can only use them if they are specifically described in the scenario rules." Also worth noting that this is not true. "Weapons and Ammunition with the Anti-materiel trait are the only means of attacking Scenery Structures" from the red box in Scenery Structures
I did double check Martial Arts as well and at no point does it say anything about Troopers other than the user of the skill. Note that being Engaged is not a requirement either. Given this I do not see how you would not be able to use CC on the AC2s.
That's a helpful way to look at it, but it's ignoring the bit in "Requirements" about what it takes to declare the skill: Either in an Active or Reactive Turn, a trooper must reach or be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to be able to use this Special Skill. The bit about players only using them if they're part of the scenario is presented as a binary; either the scenario uses the rules, or it doesn't. If a scenario uses the scenery structures rules, it's assumed to use all of them unless it's explained further. Well, we know this isn't true, as you can throw down a template weapon on a trooper and affect a scenery structure (though the reverse is not true). It seems that they meant "damaged" here.
I'm not seeing trooper after enemy. The enemy in this case is the enemy AC2. It is not neutral, nor friendly after all. There is nothing in there about being Engaged, which does specifically call out Troopers, as I said. Also worth noting at you do not need to be Engaged to declare a CC Attack as I found out to my surprise and noted above. Fair enough, but that doesn't address the use of FO in the Mission briefing at all. It specifically states "to obtain the same effect". That being the same effect as Designating, not Forward Observing. There is nothing in the red box precluding targeting a trooper and and hitting scenery. Only the opposite.
If we're calling it an enemy, fine, but what does that mean for The Grid? It doesn't say that it doesn't trigger the Targeted state, either. Forward Observer itself only uses the word "target," and says it puts the "target" into the Targeted state, whether or not it is a trooper, it seems. That's exactly my point. You can't throw a template such that it includes an enemy impersonator, as you're not allowed to attack "friendlies." The same is not true of scenery structures - you can attack them with anything, it's just that only anti-materiel weapons damage them. If you couldn't attack scenery structures with non-anti-materiel weapons, you couldn't catch them in the area of effect of a flamethrower or what have you.
Not sure what you mean by that question. Scenery is not a trooper and can only enter states specifically allowed. In the Grid those states are Designated (allowed specifically by the mission rules), Damaged, and Destroyed (both allowed by Scenery Structure Rules). Targeted does require being a trooper though so would have no effect even if you could target with the normal FO skill, but that isn't allowed as noted by the red box's requirement of Anti-Material ammo types for attacks. Aha! That's the disconnect. Targeted the state specifically calls out Troopers Your example doesn't work there actually as templates specifically call out Troopers, as scenery is agreed not to be a trooper it does not suffer the attack unless it is the target of an impact template...except that situation is specifically called out in the red box as a no go. [/quote]
@DukeofEarl Your interpretation means that if you shoot a trooper taking cover behind an Antenna with a Missile Launcher on blast mode, the Antenna would be unaffected, as templates only affect troopers.
Exactly. That is how the rules are written. You can not target the scenery and hit troopers with a template and templates only effect troopers. It is consistent with the trooper/scenery distinction at all points of the written rules.
I've never seen it played that way, and given that the scenery structures rules allow you to affect them with BS attack even though BS attack specifies "trooper" I'd imagine it extends to templates as well, as they're a special case of BS attack.
I would like to point our that Martial Arts is a CC Special Skill, and using CC Special Skill requires being "engaged in Close Combat". Accordingly to forum authorities, that line was intended to mean "declaring CC Attack" though, so you may be right in the end.
