Well, perhaps we must accept the idea about You Jing have some "evilness", and it makes us have some "villain" role. But like I said before, we must act with some coherence, and no act like incontrolable brutal psychopaths, and give to O12 and our enemies great reasons to penalize us without chance to defend us.
Personally I think Yu Jing see themselves at least to some extend as the "protectors of humanity" they are structured and disciplined, unlike PanO and Nomads and care a lot to stop organised crime instead of facilitating it ectr ectr.
I have a question for you guys, who have read the book. As I can hear from you, YJ has some gray elements but are there any expamples of good, skillful or heroic actions on YJ side? I think that some people do not argue about YJ not having neutral (fluffwise) stories. I want to know if there is anything, apart from numerical superiority, that compensates for evil fluff (because we can all agree that YJ is not described as the care bears).
Basically no. The closest you'll get is the chronology of the Uprising section that summarizes conflict points in all the theaters. Both JSA and YJ have their moments (although it's usually JSA). It doesn't focus much on individual heroics.
Thanks I didn't mean to target individual deeds. I've heard that there is a lot of JSA underdog struggle to regain independence. It's a shame that there is no YJ part of stopping the terrorists. Let's just hope, in 2019(?), white banner will kick PanO out of Svalarheima (to protect endangered species or something, from ever hungry corporations)
Yep, we fight against crime and terrorism, we have Imperial service for it! But blowing up cities and execute lots and lots of "suspicious" citizens... And "see what happens to our enemies! Burn them all! Burn them all!'... Fells sad to us, saddnes and shame. That give a very bad impressions to everybody about us.
Not really "current ruler". Remember, YJ is made of an Emperor as a Supreme Judge of sorts (and tons of respect), and a government chosen however they do it (bureucracy, meritocracy, democracy, whatever). Well, that retreat is something that O-12 would have the sense to force. Once Japan had been granted the status of Nation, further attacks would have meant an act of war and place the Human Sphere in a civil war. YJ's only chance for victory would be to distract the rest of the sphere and endure long enough for the CA to rescue them... Because that's the only possible scenario, unless the CA is suddenly revealed to be an empty shell, and what we see are all of its resources... In fact, according to fluff, PanO's "political parties" are literally the corporation lobbies, it's not that they have secret influence or the like. On the bright side, you can try Starfinder and already have cool miniatures for that, as long as you don't care about using helmeted or humans XD. That's a zero sum game that ends with habitalbe planets blown up left and right, so I'd say is a very very "no-no" option. Even the CA is sparse with the planet-busting, and they have an insterestellar empire. Unlikely: she should have predicted part of the reaction of the ISS, remember Sun Tze has been with them since he was sent to YJ more or less... And anyway she could have altered videos, comms, and controls remotely or with OSS operatives previously deployed to minimize the damage to all sides involved. It's been mentioned, missiles launched from over the horizon and orbital defenses... Also, I'd say PanO had AA capable subs and other seaships. Considering how PanO was "in", having a plan and resources to do thinks like that is more than credible, it's logical. You are misunderstanding. What has been said is that it looks that YJ is so alienated regarding the rest of the sphere (essentially ALL united against YJ) that it wouldn't be a surprise if they decided to join Ko-Dali. It's not lore nor fanfiction, just idle chatting. That would mean the fall of the sphere, incidentally. But this is not hard to consider, and opens another can of worms entirely... namely, YJ removing Aleph's access to so many of the State-Empire workings, and a direct impact would be "no extra funding" => no Aleph units on the ISS (those, like the ones on Neoterra, are there because YJ pays for their presence). YJ would need to develop its own expert programs, and a second AI would eventually show up in YJ by the simple need to fulfill those parameters that they no longer trust Aleph to do. A more controlled and limited AI, for sure, more centered in the obedience of the rulers of YJ, and prone to literal interpretations... Even so, Aleph is a suspect because it would madness to assume that YJ does not know the basics laws that governs it, and if Aleph were truly not involved she would have controlled the damage so atrocities would not have been made... At least, the dam release mentioned. That she avoided acting at all... points as "she was in a corner whistling, while trying to look innocent"... The biggest issue I, as one of the people who plays neither JSA nor YJ (and I can assume at least some people who are in this same spot), is that the book has not enough on the mercenary companies, a recycle of Dire Foes (with more/linked data, but still...) and the tale of how YJ tripped itself over for the six months that the Uprising lasted, and years before that led to it, allowing the creation of Japan as a nation, while the rest of the Sphere either went against YJ, helped the JSA or took advantage to improve by taking from YJ. I was expecting more, frankly. And what I read in defense of the book is backed with what I see as flimsy logic, flawed arguments and tons of feelings, while the neutral posts trying to be neutral are a chain of "YJ fails/looks like a foolish villain". Or if you prefer it, I was expecting a sourcebook, not a Codex. If it's that good, make it Creative Commons and lets us pay for it if we feel it deserves it, or give a satisfaction quarantee with the money back if it fails. Eclipse Phase has been going for 8 years with a CC license and one of the creators have most or all of the sourcebooks in his blog, free to download. And I can tell you that what I like, I buy... I have 3 copies of Neverwinter Nights (the basic game in phisical format, the diamond edition in physical format and the GOG diamond edition...), 2 of Jade Empire (GOG and phisical), 2 of Morrowind (same), and more. And I have bought the digital versions of several EP books after reading the free copies, and I hve the core book physical, digital and free... For example. In short: I have 0 confidence that the Uprising book deserves my money, and your "buy it and read it" arguments are, in fact, not arguments at all. There is a post that made an account of all things that happened during the Uprising into numbers, the final tally was that YJ had 5 "good" results... of which 4 were later turned into loses or bad actions. So in the whole Uprising scenario, narrated by a Haqquislamite teacher (you can't get a more neutral narrator in Infinity unless you go for dry!Aleph, and that would have been either an alien narrator or a collection of raw data), Yu Jing manages to get ONE single event in its favour. The "dumbing down" is simply "YJ loses totally, all the sphere unites against him, JSA secedes succesfully". You can talk circles around those three, spending time and ink and telling little else, and that's what happened.
The other plot hole was not how pano did the steel wall. Ultimately that seems fairly logical def if aleph assisted on the uprising. How did pano get away with doing it with no reprimand is what i find plot hole-ish. The steel wall was an act of war and so should be some thing done about it. As far as removing aleph and building their own ai? Actually illegal under 0-12 law. The one ai law says aleph is the only authorized ai to exist in the human sphere. While nomads break this law hard, it is against the rules. And to remove aleph is to remove a huge advantage you have that your main rival also has all because you suspect aleph involvement for the Japanese side but without proof. It would be folly to remove a powerful tool without guarantee. As for the constant bringing up that yujing can join the combined army. They cannot. The populace can join yu jing but those in power really can't. The ei and combined army will become those in charge and the best you can be will be a puppet king. This will not be acceptable by any of the human sphere amd so i really don't see any of the factions to give in to combined army.
Yes, I mentioned in previous posts that the wall happening is possible, suceeding logical, and politically insanely dangerous. Also, that O-12 must hace provided its approval, but mostly retroactive... which means that, for a time, PanO was at an undeclared war with YJ, and Earth was close to armageddon. Yes, it is. The Nomads are proof that laws are to be applied only if they caught you... look at McMurrough's sword (or De Fersen's!!!!), or at Pi Well. Anyway, YJ could try to go for a combo of expert systems that do not reach AI status, but it would be less efficient and more costly than having Aleph. Certainly, and they can't remove Aleph totally before having the replacement ready. They can, however, trust less the AI who knows it all but did not "knew" of this... Not really, the societies who freely join the CA conserve all what they have, it would cost little to the CA to leave the ones in power where they are, adding some "special advisors" or a governor to oversee and be done with it. Of course, the current rulers have currently no one over them, and if joining the CA they would have the EI... Then again, it seems like YJ has to asnwer to O-12 right now, so changing O-12 with CA seems like no big change in that regard XD
Allowing PanO to penetrate your waters and blockade you is the height of incompetence. Where were the carrier groups to stop that? Why wasn't PanO fired upon as soon as it entered into YJ territorial waters without a reason? The answer is that Gutier doesn't understand why that would be important, I guess. And good writers should do their homework; I know I do. That's because the supposition that people were putting forth ("Uprising was written poorly") was one you thought we were not allowed to make, as it was a criticism of our betters.
@Hecaton While I do not have a sample of your work to judge it, I am a bit sceptical on this statement, on the other hand I have several examples of Gutier's work that speak about his quality and he is a good and well researched writer and world builder. The supposition you can judge a work detailing complex and complicated interactions from little undetailed summaries you read in a forum and decree its quality and failure is to some extend suspect, people who have read the book and appreciate the big and small details have the right to be sceptical on such claims.
There is no possibility of healthy debate, when it all comes down to personal opinions. There will be people who like the book, and people who don't. It's useless to convince one another (at least at this point). Let people complain and if you want to glorify the book. Go ahead. Create suitable thread and have a place where there is nobody to talk shit about the Uprising. And if anybody would, show him like 10 threads that were created for that purpose. These is no point in being internet warrior of justice. There will be no "It's over shitposter. I have the high ground". I didn't see one user who had changed his or her mind since clarification about roster changes (was it adepticon?). I wasn't trying to insult anybody. I was just referring to the level of some posts (from both sides).
I've just checked, and the chronology isn't attributed to anyone. However there's some flavour text at the end of it of a Haqq Instructor-Officer commenting on the chronology.
Are you denying the facts of what happened? Did PanO enter Yu Jing's territorial waters while YJ was fighting against a rebellion without being defended against?
@Dude well if we believe what we are told the kuge are the worst guys in all of this for being greedy pieces of shit and kicking this whole thing off.
PanO was pushed by public opinion and behind the scenes lobby pushing to ask O-12 to intervene for "humanitarian reasons" and I have to stress public opinion Candy Double's show is more than just a show and affected public opinion against Yu Jing and pro Japanese not only in PanO but throughout the Human Sphere, the undercover operations of Intelligence agencies to leak warzone footage spinning it against Yu Jing made the political manoeuvring against it impossible since the O-12 senates were unable to decree for Yu Jing without a public outcry and PanO got permission to enact the Iron wall. Yu Jing have used O-12 to trump PanO politically too many times already, making a fuss about it more than objecting would be bad for future possibilities to use the O-12 against their political opponents and PanO did not do anything outside their authorised area of operations and that was only Japanese areas bordering its own territories. Of course Yu Jing could shoot down PanO aircraft and start a new war were they would be against everybody, hard logic dictated they should not, the evacuation of the Japanese Archipelago by the way happened before Japan was declared Independent by O-12 and Yu Jing ground forces did harass PanO bases were there was a legal grey ground like on Dawn. Infinity's world is not our world and truing to bring our logic and our pacts to it is not going to work. Remember both PanO and Yu Jing used the fact that companies from their nations had rights to the same exploitation zones on Dawn in Neocolonial wars as a reason to deploy armed forces and fight each other without been at "war". Edit That is what I believe, if they had not radicalised the Japanese population they probably would not have lost their "normal citizen" status in the first place.
Also, let’s not forget that PanO has (albeit before the current moment in the game) suffered humiliation itself in the Oberhaus in the matter of Svalarheima and Ariadna.
