Hi guys, I'm just kind of curious about something that I suspect I know the answer to but I just wanted to check in and see what you all guys think since you actually play Tohaa instead of it just being theory. I play Onyx quite a bit and the Fractaa is quite close to being an auto-include; for me the boarding shotgun profile. When I play against Onyx, I always have the Fractaa in the back of my mind as something that might appear, since it's quite commonly deployed in that faction. When I play against Tohaa, however, I never expect the Gao-Tarsos because it almost never sees table time. But the Gao Tarsos is equivalant in cost and even a little bit better. So why is essentially the same unit very common in one faction but uncommon in another? The only real theory I've come up with is that because Onyx doesn't have smoke it relies more on troops that can pass through long firelanes, like camo or AD troops. With eclipse grenades, Tohaa isn't as dependent on appearing out of nowhere. Still, the extra wound on the Fractaa/Gao-Tarsos means it's one of the best AD troops out there; I rank it right with the Tiger Soldier and the Ragik (which is also interesting because while I find the Tiger Soldier quite common I find the Ragik not so much). So just curious...why do you think the Gao-Tarsos is less common in Tohaa? Although now that I've written this long post I'm realizing it's probably the simplest of reasons: the Fractaa comes in the Onyx starter box and the Gao-Tarsos does not (an explanation that also covers the Tiger Soldier/Ragik rarity...perhaps the Ragik will be more common now that it's in beyond Red Veil).
I took him quite a lot in the beginnings but nowadays I simply forget him. When i have to deal with ODD or TO camo or normal camo i take a Gao Rael. If I have 30 spare points I take the Kosuil or the Kotail. Maybe you are right and i should swap out a Clipsos for a Tarsoso It is really good and can deal with a lot
The Ragik simply doesn't really have a use: for killy you have the Fiday, for button push you have *tons* of options (vanilla haqquislam can place Halqa... Ghulam +3 points with Mechanized Deployment, so 19 points doctors in the middle of the table. Or Al'Hawwa, Tuareg Medic+/AHD, Farzan, Hunzakut...), so it boils down to competitors. The same could be said in Aleph/SP: Diomedes is a 40 points Frenzy NWI Mk12 killing machine with MA, while the basic Ekdromoi is 20 points (chain rifle) or 26+0.5SWC (AHD), but SP tends to be point-starved, and generic Aleph has the same problem with the extra of the Garuda (mimetic killer). The Tiger Soldier is a Mimetic Vol14 Paramedic with a flamethrower (more interesting than the hacker, since it costs no SWC and, since it doesn't has Stealth in any form, being hackable might be a great problem), which is 'nuff said ^^ The Fraacta is what, 5-6 pieces? Body, leg, head, arm, arm with weapon, wings? The Gao Tarsos I think has three "wings" and much more pieces... Aside from that, heck, it's a D-charges toting Paramedic, so he can cover more secondary objectives than the Tiger Soldier! So yeah, I'd say it's a lot about assembling the model.
I'd say that it is because, as you said, Tohaa has more ways to approach an objective (Eclipse Grenades, cheap Clipsos, cheaper Cube Jäger...). The Gao-Tarsos is very good, but it's not cheap, and that's why I don't use it much. If I'm expending 30 points, I usually want to use that Order, and an AD trooper might not come out until 3rd turn. But I agree, one of the best AD troops in the game. P.S.: The Gao-Tarsos model has three wings, three "fins"(or whatever it is), two arms, body, leg and maybe head. That's about 10-11 pieces you have to put together with glue and lots of patience. And more than half of those pieces don't have "mounting points" (I don't know the name).
I just got the Gao Tarsos and will glue it together later or the next few days, another reason he is not seeing much play is because with Tohaa every unit which is not fireteam triad has to be worth it, for me at least, I play tohaa for the fireteam so every non fireteam unit needs to have a good reason, igao and clipsos got camo/to, kerail smoke
Firstly... it is.expensive. Secondly it is slow Third but most important,he hasnt got the synergy with mates and bombs like other dudes.
Couldn't agree more. When I saw how the wings "attached" to the backpack I was like *inhale* WHAT ARE THOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE?!
I like the tarsos, it has grabbed me plenty of classifieds, that said it never fits into the list naturally. It is expensive enough i really need to plan around it while there are plenty of other ways for tohaa to do things. Eclipse just makes that much of a difference
I had no idea the Gao-Tarsos was in so many pieces. That's definitely and added and logical reason I hadn't considered!
As said above the Gao Tarsos is a fantastic AD troop but doesnt synergise well with other troopers or grab objectives as effectively as some other options. If you want a AD specialist the Cube Jager can actually be really damn good at this and you're the 12+ points can get you an additional regular order chaksa, kaauri Kamael. The weapons options can be good as well as an AD para specialist but you'r paying the same points for some very good other units that can be a bit more versatile and supportive of your other units.
I also wanted to mention thanks guys for humoring my little question. One of the things I love about this game is how you can have very similar units -- in this case Fractaa and Gao Tarsos -- and the unit can be really essential in one faction and not so much in another. Just goes to show that, even though each faction has access to almost all the same things other factions have access to (various AD troops, various HI, various Camo, whatever) each faction can really still have its own unique character.
Sukeul and Kaeltar broke the balance of Tohaa. Previously, Tohaa had a large variety of diverse units that all had very cool unique capabilities. Gao-Tarsos was one of them. But with the inclusion of Mimetic 2-Wound HMG/Missiles, plus Symbiomates, the need for asymmetric warfare units like the Gao-Tarsos just aren't really present anymore. It's a good example of how to break balance by introducing a unit that specifically overwrites all the deliberate disadvantages an army is designed around.
In my case, I usually choose between Clipsos or Gao Tarsos for the surprise order, and usually i end picking clipsos because it is a unit that gives me a lot of games and it's cheaper with TO and infiltrator, but Gao-Tarsos it's a really good option, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, now i also have to Choose between Tarsos and Cube Jeager...
I'm not 100 percent sure I agree, at least not about the Sukeul. I agree that unit completely shifted Tohaa, but I think the balance of Tohaa was off before it. It was very difficult for Tohaa to handle strong ARO threats with a max BS of 13/no modifiers. That kind of pigeonholed Tohaa to rely completely on eclipse grenades. I didn't see many Gao-Tarsos back then, either, but I did see a lot more clipsos and ectros. Everything pretty much came down to whether Tohaa could get their Makauls across the table or not. That's still a thing, but the way Tohaa plays on the table (as opposed to the type of units that appear) feels more diverse to me now. Standard disclaimers apply, of course, the most important of which is probably that pre-Human Sphere I preferred to play on more European-style open tables than American-style dense tables, which exacerbated the problem for Tohaa against strong ARO pieces (like BS 16 missile and rocket launchers).
I agree that the difficulty of building the Gao-Tarsos combined with Tohaa having three other units capable of getting across the table (Clipsos, Kotail, and Makaul who can drag two others with him) are the real reason you don't see the AD troop in many lists. Think about how popular HMGs are in other armies and consider the fact that one of the few ways to bring an active (not ARO) HMG was the Gao-Tarsos, yet rarely did/do you see them. With the newer toys that Tohaa have it's made the Gao-Tarsos even less appealing. You can't add Symbiomates to him. For most Symbiomate addicts this is enough to condemn the Gao-Tarsos to the shelf. The rest of us just tend to forget the option, or only think about him once we have pretty much covered our bases in our lists. Personally I think it's a good unit. It has it's place in the army and I am glad we have them. The combi Gao-Tarsos was the first Infinity miniature I ever bought because I thought it looked amazing. That said, I just never field him. I have used him in a few games here and there, but I always end up adding other things to my lists before I remember the poor Gao-Tarsos.
If 't be true thee haven't assembl'd a Gao Tarsos, thou art not a true Tohaa playeth'r. Beest a sir! Doth t!
Indeed... I completely agree!!!! In my meta the Thoaa lists are all much of a carbon copy of each other... Mask
The changes to H3N3, the proliferation of HI core link teams Tohaa simply needed a long range answer to HI Pain trains bringing missile launchers. The Ectros HMG in active turn which was out only previous linkable HMG sits at around 50/50 odds of causing a wound or suffering a wound VS a reactive BS 13 HI 5 man link. Sure you might smoke a Sakiel triad up field but that's also extremely order intensive and much more open to counters such as TO camo, Mines etc. What I feel the Sukeul brought to Tohaa in the H3N3 space was a unit that was capable of taking on HI link teams at range and winning (unless they're riot grrls). Their purpose was always going to be different than the Gao Tarsos. I think the Gao Tarsos was always one of those specialised units. I think the Cube Jager swung it further away than the Sukeul in terms of competing roles.
