How were you playing it before? Confused deployment made it really risky to take Ninjas and Oniwaban before anyway, and vanilla has always had a hard time with it.
I wouldn't mind if the Zanshi actually got a full point's worth of CC skills. I suspect that Zanshi are 10.6 points (rounds up to 11), while Fusiliers are actually 10.4 points (or something similar, which rounds down to 10). Make Zanshi cost 11.4 points (rounding down to 11) would quite likely bump them up to CC16 or 17. I suspect that many of the other YJ profiles are in the same boat and could get +3CC added without changing their points cost due to rounding. Granted, that would be scary on some profiles. Taking Army6 from the top: Bao would be CC17 or 18 Celestial Guard would be CC16 or 17 Pheasant Agent would be CC24 or 25(!) Kuang Shi would be CC16 or 17 Zhanying would be CC18 or 19 Sun (1 or 2) would be CC17 or 18 Tigers would be CC17 or 18 Daofei would be CC18 or 19 Hac Tao would be CC21 or 22(!) Hsien would be CC21 or 22(!) Crane would be CC24 or 25(!) Shang Ji would be CC20 or 21(!) Su Jian would be CC10 or 11 in mobility, CC18 or 19 in combat Wu Ming would be CC18 or 19 Yan Huo would be CC17 or 18 Zuyong would be CC17 or 18 Guijia would be CC21 or 22(!) Guilang would be CC16 or 17 Kanren would be CC21 or 22(!) Ninjas would be CC25 or 26(!!) Shaolin would be CC24 or 25(!) Remotes would remain the same. That would really make YJ "the CC faction" with enough points to actually be good at it. I notice that most of the models with obscene CC stats after the buff are actually Imperial Service, not vanilla. I'm pretty sure that the Guijia should not get the buff at all, even CC19 on a TAG is terrifying! I'd also apply this buff to Secessionist units, BTW.
It doesn't appear to be accurate to say that CC scales the same across all values. Apart from outliers like the Zanshi it generally seems to cost only 1pt for 2-3 CC below 20 but then 1pt+ for CC above 20. And I'm not sure that's something which should change either, once you go over 20 CC starts to get useful on the same level as other attributes and should cost roughly the same.
Problem being, of course, that CC is quite useless before you get to the values where it starts costing 1pts per point. I still say; scrap costs for CC attribute below 20 entirely - a model's CC value below that value is purely cosmetic. (Models like Hsien should pay for Martial Arts, not CC, since it's the Martial Arts that make them somewhat dangerous in CC)
I disagree, it's NOT entirely cosmetic. Worth less than other attributes, yes. But not worth nothing. Slap a -9 on an opponent and there's suddenly a BIG difference between CC 14 and CC 18.
The above passages are the descriptions we have for Zhanshi. Back when the original profiles for the bog standard line troops were set in stone, the game had a very limited, samey design for most of its basic line troops. For the most part, they were palette-swapped with each one having basically the same stats and loadouts, varied only by their nation's tech level and faction stats. We didn't have even half of the weapons that exist these days and for the most part, given the above current background I think Zhanshi need a bit of a reworking, especially in the loadout department. The recurring theme here is close quarters combat, not hand-to-hand, not melee, CQB. But look at their loadouts! Same vanilla loadouts most basic line infantry have had since 1st Edition. Rifle-esque weapon, a variety of support weapons (LGL, HMG, Sniper, Missile Launcher), and a few specialist profiles. Outside of their (rather pointless) +1 CC, nothing really screams "these are the CQB troops" about them. This is weird given the faction they're in. The combi is sold as a CQB-ish rifle, but is a common weapon for basically everyone. Not exactly the kind of weapon one would note for making someone a CQB specialist. It boggles my mind that CB haven't just slapped down a chain rifle (Yu Jing makes the most popular brand after all) or an SMG version (or better yet, SMG+Chain-colt) on to the Zhanshi and basically called it a day. I could make arguments for why it should be rocking a Spitfire or Red Fury instead of an HMG and also have access to a BS profile (or better yet, a BS FO) but I digress. I also wouldn't mind seeing it get a dump stat in something to compensate for the extra CC added on. My preference would be giving them ARM 0, but BS10 would also work (especially if they get a template-wielding profile). Basically, I'd love it if these guys actually did do CQB like it says in the background. But they don't, they do the same combat style as all the other line troops but with an extraneous point of useless CC that only serves to be an albatross around their neck. My fix would literally be to dump ARM down to 0 and grab them an SMG+Chain-colt profile (and swap out things like their HMG for a Spitfire or Red Fury to better complement their skill set). Now that would be a line trooper worth taking out for a spin (even in a list containing Kuang Shi) while also better reflecting the background material. Alternatively, this, fixing the point rubric that erroneously values CC on anything that isn't actively pursuing getting in to CC or doesn't have the means to. I honestly think CC should be handed out at pre-set levels like BTS and unit types should have a base "free" level of CC that they come with. CC specialists (things that can actually use their levels in MA, NBW, etc.) would get non-standard values. But no more of this CC18+CCW on random shooty HI shit going on. Charging for stats that will never get used is a bad assumption to make in a point rubric and it is one that effects more than just Zhanshi (the CC-tax is more than just a Yu Jing issue) and given the way rolling for stats over 20 works (i.e. adding bonuses to your roll) it means that even high (but sub-20) CC stats are likely to be overpowered by someone swinging with 21+ score and a bunch of modifiers. And if they could pose a threat to the assaulter? They probably just get shot instead (because few proper CC specialists are great reactive shooters!). It is telling that you can point to most non-CC specced troops in the book and state pretty easily that dumping them down to, say, CC10 or CC8 would basically just be a pure improvement for the points saved. For most units, Close Combat is a tax and a downside that work against them rather than advantages to leverage against the enemy. In over a decade, I've only ever seen a Zhanshi engage another unit in CC once and among my many CCW-equipped HI, only my Crane has ever willingly charged another target (and promptly died!). Outside of CC virtuosos, close combat just isn't a really big factor in a profiles common usage, so charging for more of it when not needed doesn't make much sense.
-9? Where would that come from? CC as in CC attribute. Not CC special skills. There's a difference between CC 14 and CC 18 - but it's a difference you'll almost never experience since neither of those two units will want to go into melee in the first place. And while those two units are certainly slightly different when facing a back-stab by a Ninja it won't matter. Ninja vs CC14 mook: 72.77% vs 3.25% Ninja vs CC18 mook: 72.29% vs 3.39% And with mook, I don't mean Zhanshi, I mean Wu Ming, 'cause I accidentally left stats way too high on the custom unit, so it's even worse odds for LI
I get hit by -9 in CC all the time. Martial Arts 3 + Surprise Attack is basically 80%+ of the CC attacks I have to defend against (I'm not initiating them often as non-MO PanO). And it matters A LOT if the unit getting hit with that is a Fusilier or a Locust, because CC 13 - 9 = 4 while CC 20 - 9 = 11 and one of those can literally only crit against most CC opponents while the other can still get lucky with a middling roll vs a low roll from the CC monster. That's a BIG difference in the margin for survival, and well worth some points. I mean... not 7 points, but SOME points.
Again, refer to my posted chances. It really doesn't matter if you're getting hit by something with Camo/TO skill and MA3+. The difference in chance is literally cosmetic, so values below 20 should be just that - cosmetic. Oh, a Daofei is pretty good in melee if push comes to show. CC18. Points? No extra. Still significantly better and more deadly at shooting and if faced with someone actually capable in melee his increased chances are a rounding error. In a "fair" fight against something without Surprise Attack, it's different, but nearly all of the units I'd like to remove 0-1 points from (or in extreme circumstances 2 points) are going to have a better shot (literally) by opting to shoot making the CC value something you use when all other options are gone. Many are still probably better off attempting to Dodge.
Well, the Fusilier has a 17.5% chance to survive the order conscious. And the Locust has a 19.5% chance to survive under identical circumstances. That's probably not worth what the Locust currently pays, but it's not worth nothing.
Daofei is CC16 Remember when people were going nuts over the Swiss Guard having a sword despite his CC15? Well I'd say CC15 AP CCW TO beats CC16 Shock CCW Camo. Still both somewhat extreme in terms of 'situationally useful'. I'd use the Hac Tao in CC because of only 5% chance to miss, -6 vs CC Attacks or -12 against BS Attacks. With DA CCW to get things done in one hit. The Dao Fei has a 20% chance to miss his CC Attacks outright, 30% for a ARM1 target to make the save and only -9 vs BS Attacks... winning FTF is hard enough for him without the possibility to wiff his hit or bounce off.
@Durandal Fantastic idea on the Zhanshi and trying to match them more closely to the fluff. The difficulty that I think CB will hit is that they've recently redone all the models for them so the following sculpts exist: Combi rifle x3 Combi rifle hacker Missile launcher Multisniper HMG (though it is quite a small HMG) While you could easily switch the HMG profile for a Spitfire/Red Fury I'm not sure how easy the others would be. I guess there would be the option of just releasing a more CQB oriented pack to fill that niche but sadly I think the boat on this has sailed.
Daofei's CC value is fairly irrelevant both to the argument as it is irrelevant in game. It's an example of a model that's supposedly good in a scuffle but utterly fails to do anything worthwhile in an actual fight. Depends on what weapons we're talking about. ML Hac Tao who's strayed within 4" of an enemy who's got cover and is not all that great at CC and can move in without attracting extra AROs? Sure. HMG Hac Tao who's strayed within 4" of an enemy and is caught outside of cover against an enemy who's got cover and is not all that great at CC and can move in without attracting extra AROs? Sure. Hac Tao who's strayed within 4" of an enemy with ODD or TO and that enemy is specifically fairly bad at CC and you can move in without attracting extra AROs? Sure. Multi Rifle Hac Tao? Nope, shooting is significantly better. HMG Hac Tao in cover? Nope, shooting (even in -3) is significantly better. Hac Tao facing something that's decent in CC (so... Hsien and better probably)? Not a chance. Point is... well point is not. These are all so situational that they shouldn't cost points. They should be stuff you add to fill out a point to add flavour to a character. In most of those cases (except the ML), the Hac Tao will be so similar in shooting ability compared to CC that it's almost a draw between shooting and melee:ing. Now, the Hac Tao pays 2 points for the DA CCW and has 19 CC, so my argument is that Hac Tao is precisely at the break point where it should pay for those CC attributes and they'd still pay 2 points for that DA CCW (over a knife). It's almost like the Hac Tao is the perfect example for when units should start paying for CC attribute, according to my argument :p
Taking a look at those examples: ML Hac Tao moves within 4" of enemy. Hitting on 8s with ML (vs 9 on combi fusilier). Dodge on 14 (vs 9 on combi fusilier) followed by 2nd order to move into base for CC on 19 (vs cc13 on combi fusilier). ML Attack gives 28%/55%/17% (success, neither, fail) CC Dodge section 58/30/12% CC Attack section 63/27/11% Hac Tao CC success is 58% x 63% = 37% Fusilier success (CC route) is 12% + (58% x 11%) = 18% Nothing happens = 1 - 37% - 18% = 45% As this takes 2 actions lets consider the giving the ML a 2nd shot if it survives. ML 2nd shot is 55% x 28% (as we only care about the situation where nothing happened on the first shot) = 15% Equally there is an increased chance of dying on the 2nd shot of 55% x 17% = 9% Thus our 2 action ML shot has a final outcome of 43%/31%/26% Compared to a CC approach with an outcome of 37%/45%/18% Ranged attacks give a slightly better kill chance (6% improvement) but with a far higher chance of being wounded in return (8% higher). Of note is the proportional chance 37 -> 43 is a 14% proportional increase in kill rate compared to the fusilier's 31% proportional increase. Put another way, unless you absolutely have to kill that fusilier you're better off going the CC route.
Something Yu Jing can do relatively well is play beatstick with the Yan Huo. We have access to a very cheap Hyper-Rail Magnetic Cannon that is still on a very good (BS 14!) platform. It's viable to Move+Shoot 10 times in a turn, but still have points left over to play other games as well. It's probably possible to double up and do this with nearly two full order groups as well, if you want to leave most other toys at home.
Starting from 13 base CC should probably cost: 1:4 - CC to 17 1:3 - CC to 20 1:2 - CC to 22 1:1 - CC 23+ So Zanshi, Order Sergeants and other units paying a point for CC would go to CC 17. Units paying 2 points would go to CC 20, 3 points would buy CC 22 and 4+ would buy CC 23+. This, plus current Martial Arts costs, would leave CC dipping units appropriately costed while also reflecting the impact of very high CC in cost appropriately.
That's besides the point. What's the origin of that argument anyway? Fluff? The Dao Fei never was any good at CC, which source claims he should be supposedly good in a scuffle? CC19 with Marker State and a PH14 DA CCW is useable in a vacuum against the majority of things. For a 60-70 points troop it's not quite as attractive to use their mid range CC capability offensively compared to their high end BS options - in most cases. For those it is CC protection, bloat or used to balance their Profiles. Hardly anything costs always the appropriate amount of points when put in relation to the platform it comes along with. Bloat always comes ahead with marginal benefit (although often outweighed by the costs). We all had a Mutt, CG, etc win a lucky Smoke FTF, a Swiss would be pretty screwed where the Hac Tao could Cautious Move into CC to chop away at the Mutt with fairly minimal risk and good odds. In this case it's tiny niches, tiny niches that add up with a WIP14 Nanopulser and his BS kit. Which is how a Hac Tao beats a Swiss on all his Multirifle Profiles in my book. Going from Vanilla tro MO and then NCA gave me personally some perspective how invalueable a tool CC is. From the humble Electric Pulse to CC20+ & MA levels. Outside of myself I haven't really seen anyone actively using anything except a CC Specialist. But it's one more thing in the box which ultimately adds up into a basic toolkit of niche interatctions, largely unknown and unused by the playerbase.
That's been my experience as well. High CC can act as a deterrent to would be assassin's but I have never sought out a fight with anything short of a Ninja etc who is a CC specialist. MA is far more important than a high CC value to my mind, imposing negative mods on your opponent is awesome. On that topic as well, something that I always thought was very Yu Jing and that I'd love to see more of, is MA on more of our HI profiles. Even at the cost of lower CC values, a more liberal sprinkling of MA across the board to represent the Yu Jing focus on close quarters prowess would be awesome. Stealth on HI is insanely good, and it's something that I actually do use very often. Being able to wander around happily without provoking an ARO is epic. Especially against those rotten Gazi hidden in a nearby building.
