BS12 isn't particularly good at shooting, it can't beat a Makaul in CC. Though it is very mobile - until you run into one of the missions with terrain rules, and then it's stuck moving 2". It's got some serious Skornergy going on with Protheion *and* a Vorpal CC weapon. And because of the derpy "infinite height" of the terrain zones you can't even super-jump over them. And, of course, it still dies to Shock, and what's more, it can be knocked unconscious by Shock ammo now due to that ill-advised ruling. If it had the Frenzy discount I think it'd be an improvement.
Myrmidons and Dog Warriors already have access to smoke grenades which is far superior to even a Pupnik's chance to Dodge given that it will prevent complete further BS retaliation. I do think that Ninjas and Shinobus represent the biggest problem with assigning CC value as the evasive stat for Engage, though I'd like to tie that one in with that CC system is, hand on heart, completely busted and riddled with problems that are only not apparent because it's so utterly limited in scope. Because of TO camo and Engaging from HD, I should write that out. For any other use case, I don't actually see all that much problems with Ninjas/Achilles/Myrmidons/Hospitaller engaging even good gun fighters if they stray within Engage distance 8 times out of 10 (or 7 out of 10 as is the case for the ones who are merely masters and not living legends at CC). You still have a few other option as active player of dealing with the CC monster provided you left enough orders to do so. As for Dodge - this isn't about Dodge. The goal is for a Shinobu to remain as crap at dodging mines as now, but godlike at getting into, and performing in, CC
The main issue with engage is they can just hit you on CC. Thats a problem when a shinobu kitsune with cc 25 can lose a engage on 13 against a poor CC 14 Zhansi. I feel it unreal, and getting shot when you engage is tragic but more posible, ( eveb most troops that try to engage are CC specialist with ODD or TO). Giving kynematica a +3 or +6 to engage sounds a good idea but i just find easy to declare via FAQ that you can't declare CC atac against and engage.
Hmm, I hadn't even realized that you could declare a CC Attack against an engaging troop. I guess that's where this whole thing started. That does seem rather dumb. What if Engage applied a negative MOD to CC Attacks only?
It would still be pretty much useless. Most troops will have no problems preventing the engage using ranged weapons - in fact it's preferable for even Keisotsu (which goes to show how little the increased CC value they get is really worth). Both Shinobu (Combi) and Oniwaban (BSG) are safer staying in cover using their ranged weapons, and Shinobu/Oniwaban have TO camo that the likes of Montessa, Cranes and many other CC-oriented units do not. What this makes is that the only models where Engage is a realistic and lethal threat from are the HI melee models - especially those that can stack modifiers like Shikami and Achilles - who can absorb the wounds and still be lethal (plus they also tend to have more respectable PH). I do strongly think that the game is missing out by tying it to such a weak attribute, both in terms of visualization and in terms of further reducing the value of close combat. Sorry for the broken record routine.
Doesn't sound like a broken record: just sounds logical to me :) You really should do that write-up you mentioned. As someone who loves trying to make CC work, I have the vague feeling that it is convoluted and not well thought-out but I couldn't logically explain why that is the case. Someone with more experience and a more mathematical mind would be a big help.
Engage is fine. Yeah it's not reliable. It works some of them time. But neither is the BS attack ARO, or the dodge ARO, or indeed most single AROs against an Active turn troop. As is good and right. You kill Kitsune by shooting her and giving her an Engage on her CC of twenty-five is ridiculous. It's my personal view that throwing smoke in ARO is a bit too good in fact, but that's by the by. Engage is fine.
The problem expressed in this thread is not that the engage ARO is as bad as other ARO options, it's that it's generally worse, even for a CC specialist. Let's take Kitsune as an example, since you brought it up: Random 12 BS Line Troop (RLT) shoots with a combi within 4" of Kitsune in the open (assuming the line troop rounded a corner to take her out of cover, or something): 3 dice on 9's. Kistune's options for ARO are as follows: Shoot back: 1 die on 14 Dodge 4" into cover: 1 die on 13 and potentially giving RLT shots on 6's in subsequent turns. Even if no cover is available, you can dodge into better positioning for subsequent dodges or whatever. Engage: 1 die on 13 and potentially being put in a more precarious position once she dispatches RLT (since the target of engage gets to choose where she ends up). Note that RLT probably won't activate for the rest of the turn and you no longer have LoF with Kitsune because she's engaged. You're right that none of the options are good, but it's pretty clear that Engage is the worst of the three. And we're talking about one of the best CC units in the game!
I've always loved the idea of Engage but find it so difficult to pull off well that in general I opt for shooting back or dodging...which, especially considering how few of my beloved CC specialist units have Hyperdynamics (WTF CB?), means with range bands shooting back is usually better since then I'll at least possibly take-out my attacker. Which means I'm paying a huge CC tax that I rarely ever get to put to use. I get that there is always the eternal debate between those who want more hardcore realism in their game, and want it to basically be Firefight Simulation: The Boardgame, while others (like me) want it to be more stylized , but I really think that there seems little point in CC stats anywhere between 23 and 12 for how little it gets used: just have everyone have 10-12 CC except folks like Kitsune, give them 24 and make that single jump from 12-24 cost like 3 points. Otherwise, I'll never use Engage as-is :\
Uhm... you mean Kitsune can lose an engage on a 2, if the Zanshi rolls an 11 and crits. CC25 means +5 to the die roll when comparing scores, and MA3 means another +3 to Kitsune's die roll and -3 to the Zanshi's CC stat (dropping Zanshi target to CC11)
I really wish engage was more useful in the reactive turn. Sadly it is a death sentence like 95% of the time.
No on the engage attempt it's an unmodified cc 14 vs kitsunes ph13. They can also just shoot with 3 dice needing 8s. Engage is rarely worth the risk. It should be better than dodging due to its limited range, as that's something your opponent can account for. Right now it's just slightly worse, particularly if you have visual mods that can be ignored if they opt for cc attack
Looks like you are already applying the modified rule* from this thread! :). That would, indeed, make it much easier and safer to engage... perhaps we should parse this out and see if that's a bit too much? I've already suggested that they give more CC specialists H-D, which would help, but it would still be worse than dodge in most cases... hence my second suggestion of adding a new skill that affects Engage only, or just tie a +3 to Engage on any and all CC related skills (MA, Proth, NBW, etc.). Then, they could attach H-D to any trooper they felt also needed the extra dodge.
Would get interesting if references to Dodge were removed as well... Engage a Jotum at 80% to win face to face or 100% and take a flamer to the face doing it.
That would likely result in a nerf for all but 2+ W profiles even with high CC. You don't get to do anything while engaging and the Jotum (in your example) gets to decide whether to attempt to knock you back with a F2F or just fry you (melting your TO, and potentially outright killing you) before you even reach it. You would also have to tank mines and other AROs on that Engage, if present. I don't know a single player that would be willing to tank a mine with someone like Kitsune, just to be in B2B with a model for the next order (that isn't even hers). That said, I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.
Engage is a pretty powerful ARO. Not only do you avoid taking damage, but you basically get to neuter an opposing model, as it is now looked in CC and as such very limited in what it can do. Meanwhile buffing Engage would break with two very basic principle of the game. The advantage will always go to the active player, as killing is mostly done on the active turn. And Infinity is a shooting game, and despite how we all love cyberninjas, monofilament whips and wushu movies, 30 years of rigorous Shaolin training just won’t stand up to a toddler with a .44 magnum. So wipe those whiny tears from your eyes, and do your killing on the active turn, just like the rest of us ;)
I think this should read Engage is a pretty awful ARO, you basically get neutered as the opposing model can 90% of the time just stick you on a wall or box and then kill your ninja with his 9 point nomad moderator at his leaser because now you are very limited in what you can do... you only get to make armor rolls.
An interesting assertion... First point: The active player will still have an advantage (as pointed out by @Andre82) because the active player gets to choose which model gets in close, if any. Second Point: Then what the hell are all these CC specialists doing in the game in the first place?
If a 9 point moderator kills your Ninja, then I’m sad to say so, but the fault isn’t in the game, but in the player. Although it does highlight another beautiful aspect, that even the humblest line trooper can accomplish things in the game. They’re usually pretty good counters to long range SWC troops, sporting either Smoke or Infiltration along with camo/ODD and Stealth. Their increased crit lethality also makes them quite decent at taking down heavy armour.
