Got resigned. Instead of going for another Infinity faction I've decided to branch out of Infinity (unfortunetaly only after I've bought Tohaa). I'm painting lot of angry midgets with long beards now and I have a blast :)
To begin I will provide that caveat that I am viewing this as a polite discussion and I hope that anything I say will not be taken as a personal attack on your viewpoints, and I will do the same for yours. I have played Ariadna for about 5 years now. I am only now starting to branch out to other forces. (just insight into my perspective). I think it would be boarderline unjust to (at least in the Ariadna case) punish a lack of playing an infowar unit in the current state of unit access. Our cheapest "Hacker" would be a wardriver with Defensive hacking device costing a wopping .5 swc and 17 points. I say wopping because effectively all that unit can do is push buttons. We can do that for much cheaper and no SWC. Now if we were to take a "real hacker" (i.e. Wardriver with regular hacking device) we have to spend a whole SWC and 19 points. In the case of the DHD we can actually use meaning there are units tha can benefit from the programs, out of the 9 programs: Lockpicker, U-Turn, and Hack Transport Aircraft and in a super corner case Exorcism. The other programs either cant be applied to a unit (because we dont have hackable HI) or the hacker has to be a target of a hacking attack which considering the lack of offensive ability is highly unlikely or situational. Not to mention the complete absence of repeaters in the army means that you have to spend twice the orders to keep your wardriver near the one of the 3 possible units that can be hacked in Ariadna (i.e. Muls, Anaconda, and Blackjack) so that you haven't completely wasted your 17 points. In the case of the regular HD the situation is only a little bit better. If you are lucky you can risk your Wardriver and MAYBE hack a heavy or tag or something. Ariadna just doesn't hack. I think that is enough of a penalty. We dont have access to neat REMs that benefit from usefull programs, and we dont get to disrupt HI and TAGs from doing their thing. I think the cost reduction come from the fact that Impetuous units dont benefit from cover which is HUGE for every unit. Maybe the cost reduction is more noticable in other factions but with Ariadna it seems appropriate and of value for certain strategies. Also a comment not just on yours and actually comments I have seen through the community, about how CB values units and combinations of things. They use an algorithm to calculate all these things and their combinations. Is it perfect in every single case? No. I don't think there is a multi-variable algorithm that works perfectly anywhere (says the non-mathematician ) I feel that its a bit over the top to say there is NO counterplay. There are multiple ways of getting around these stratgies. I think the issue some people have with it is that the solutions are not guaranteed going to work the first time. For example, a camo token. Yes its dangerous and takes multiple orders to do so but thats the point. Take MSV, link teams of 5, or sat-lock(is that the fancy tech thing that auto-reveals and puts into a targeted state camo markers? sorry in advance if I am misremembering) But even with these things there is an opportunity for failure from bad rolls. But this is ultimately a chance based game that requires you to strategize with max-min your effectivness. I don't want instant solutions to getting around these things. If that ever happens I will probably stop playing this game because at that point strategy becomes a basic Rock-Paper-Scissors game. whew... I know I didnt address every point, or even do it particularly well but I hope my points are at least somewhat understandable.
It does all that on -6 mod unless you also field EVO hacker on field (usually 25 pts). What you actually probably should fear more is Sensor skill allowing for WIP+6 (so usually 18/19/20) repeatetable discover of everything in Sensor area (sensor+sniffers).
I think Superfluid's point is that your "real" Hacking Device costs 34 pts 1.5 SWC. While steep, it hacks well enough.
and I guess my point was that if there was a punishment for lack of hacking in an army we would have to pay for something we can't take full benefit from, which to me doesn't seem quite right. Thats all I was saying.
I think we're not talking about list level here. Not participating in infowar starts with lack of vulnerable heavy units that require protection which in turn opens you up for cheap and very nasty weaponry. So I guess it's not about not taking hackers.
You make some polite points, and I like that. I'll try to find time to attend to them in turn :) I can't say i've investigated Impetuous Ariadnan troops, but I have experience with ISS, YJ, Nomad, and Haqq impetuous units. So the thing about Impetuous as I see it, is that is incredibly hard to value what losing cover means against getting a free order a turn. I would say that both can be played around to get the most out of the Extra Order whilst not needing the cover, so Impetuous becomes a really nice skill test. I don't think the points reduction is required. Or it should be scaled as a % of the total unit cost. My point is that this reduction is especially gratuitous on the most cheap of cheap units, like the Ghazi or Kuang Shi. If you have a 10pt trooper reduced to 5 suddenly you can have 50% more of them. Losing cover mods hurts more on expensive investments, but cheap 5pt troopers with template weapons probably don't care for cover anyway. And the two I mentioned are both dogged, so they are totally willing to tank a hit if it means putting a dangerous foe down. Furthermore Ghazi don't even need LoF to do their job, so the cover thing is irrelevant, and Kuang shi are regular and can be linked so you don't need to spend orders stopping them getting themselves killed, so they are a huge order battery (which is the point of the faction, granted). Frenzy is a particularly insidious one, because it seems to knock about 10pts off a heavy infantry, and is especially insulting in 5 man core links where suddenly a 160-200 pt link now costs 130-150 , and the loss of cover only applies from the second turn onwards assuming they caused a wound. I think you are right that they will struggle to get their formula perfect, there are so many variables at play that also include terrain density and list building meta that will affect how prevalent the drawbacks and benefits feel. I would like to see them become more intelligent in their points costing of ability combinations. Right now they seem to be purely additive, with maybe a few skills or weapons have a different cost on different unit types. I'd like to see them get all equational and quadratic n' shit, cross reference skills that synergize incredibly well and have certain skills cost more in the presence of others. Easy example, Fatality level 2 could cost more on units that have access to high burst weaponry and cheaper on units that have low burst weapons. Smoke grenades cost slightly more on impetuous troops, that sort of stuff. I think people would still take Ghazi at 9-10pts because they are just so good, and nothing in the game offers what they do. The fact they are 5pts is sick.
@Superfluid It also looks like they "game" their own points system some times, especially with submachine guns. In general, there should be a price hike on all of the Chain Rifle/Flamethrower warband units.
The problem is more that I can have overwhelming infowar superiority and if I play against Ariadna I have, in fact, wasted my pts and SWC. It's actually mostly just an issue with AHDs and KHDs, and KHDs are suitably cheap and good that with KHDs I don't mind. If I take a HD or HD+ I always take a REM I can buff with it, at the very least, and that works out pretty okay. If I take an AHD, though, and I play against Ariadna or Tohaa or indeed any other faction that decides not to bring HI/REMs/TAGs to the board, then ehhhhhh. Personally, the way I would have made this work would be for the Spotlight hacking program to be better, B2 or something. Or, indeed, for there to be a CLAW-2/3 equivalent of Spotlight which is B2 and therefore is something unique to AHDs. Then it's definitely much easier to Target stuff with them, and as a result, taking hackers to spam U-Turn and protect against Guided Missiles would be desirable and useful. Like, in that circumstance Ariadna players would feel like hey, we actually don't have a lot of defence against this overwhelming infowar superiority and that really sucks! Which is what should be the case, rather than lol my hacker is this claymore lmao :P
No, it’s not ‘then ehh’: it’s worse than that. If you play against Tohaa there’s a chance you’ve just made yourself vulnerable for no good purpose. Because, yeah Tohaa needed KHDs. The issue with guided is that it’s an ability that’s really easy to overbuff. I think B2 Spotlight is justified given the proliferation of KHDs making it hardly risk free, but anything more than that will just see the return of dirty Nomads as the normal list. The key issue I find is that KHDs reduces the utility of ‘dabbling in Hacking’ with no balancing benefit. Overall they’re a good thing: I just think that they’re heavy handed. Vs a Hacker behind a repeater they’re efffectively DAM19, which is ridiculous: they effectively have Dam and to hit bonuses that cancel repeaters built in AND they ignore repeaters. I think hacking needs a root and branch rework (one, simple, example: KHDs could have easily been a Multi-rifle to Brainblast’s Combi, but really it’s a non intuitive Multi-HMG). But for an immediate bandaid: * change Reset and DHPs so that they’re valid whenever an ARO is triggered * give Spotlight the ARO tag (Targetting your opponent’s Rambo so all your AROs get +3 BS is a ‘soft’ defence that gives HDs universal utility). * create a Claw-2 ‘lesser’ Exile that ejects the target from a link on a failed BTS (but doesn’t do anything else), make it something like B3, -6 WIP and DAM11 with ARO (7 to hit and 8 to succeed will be the median result vs anything with BTS). This makes it an ARO option but really awful vs anything with BTS, and on active it’s still an awful option vs anything with BTS but can be solid vs low BTS links. It also makes Tinbot links almost immune from this programme. This gives AHDs a role against people who decide ‘just not to play’ the hacking game.
That's the thing, if Exile was more widespread but Teampro protected you from the whole link being broken, if Spotlight was good or a superior program existed then U-Turn would be more desirable, if DHDs protected other targets from AHDs and KHDs, then DHDs are suddenly what you want... Hacking would be more prevalent and interesting in the game, which I feel like it should be, and factions with less infowar capability would feel it a bit.
While I know it previously was a situation where you'd have a hacking program that intercepted the hack with a face to face and awkwardness like that, I think this should be possible if they just took inspiration from U-Turn; INTERFERENCE (COM-SAT) AUTOMATIC SKILL, ARO SHIELD-3. REQUIREMENTS This program may only be used in response to the opponent declaring a Hacking Attack on a Friendly target inside the user's Hacking Area. EFFECTS Allows the user to react in ARO to the declaration of a Hacking Attack targeting a Friendly trooper inside the Hacker's Hacking Area, even without LoF to the attacker. By declaring the use of this program, the enemy who declared a Hacking Attack automatically suffers a cumulative -3 MOD to his WIP Roll. The range of this program is the Hacker's Hacking Area.
A note is that it would still require a DHD update to WHD, or just a WHD as a baseline... Which seems to be mostly the case now.
If you are talking about my proposed Interference: Not... really... DHD is dysfunctional when they get AROs. With Interference you wouldn't get an ARO unless a friendly target was attacked or if the enemy hacker moved inside the DHD's own ZoC (since DHDs don't have any Repeater-functional AROs). Making it dysfunctional if too close to the defensive hacker might instead then become a design decision - the DHD can't protect someone else when their own safety is of higher concern (unless on a Sixth Sense or WHD trooper). Giving Yu Jing or IA access to a DHD or WHD would make for a pretty damned impressive and downright unstoppable (through hacking) AHD Shang-Ji. Ditto Corregidor and Mobile Brigada's HD.
Definitely the AHD deserves some help – especially in having a generic purpose like Targeting. 'Spotlight' is probably the weakest action in the entire game, at best you're at the same odds as an opposing Reset. The ability to mess with TAGs and HI with out exposing yourself is nice, but as it is so dependent on the opponent list, it is hardly worth it – a reliable 'Spotlight' would make the investment worth it, and also make games more diverse giving indirect fire capability to elite armies, instead of just those who can just chug cheap orders at grenade launchers. KHDs are absurd compared to the rest of the hacking devices in that it doesn't come with an SWC tax, and usually come with fairly 'battle worthy' profiles to profiles to boot. So you get access to nice goodies, like 8pt order padders, TR remotes and a 'Hacker'-specialist with no downsides. The fact that they're quite good at killing other hackers doesn't even factor in, when I include them in a list, it's simply just more icing on a free cake.
I'd be reticent to make Exile more widespread: it does too many things. 1. It ejects the target from a link 2. It isolates the target 3. It dissolves the link regardless of whether the target was the link leader. It's seriously problematic for those reasons. That sort of 'wooo all the things' is the reason I thoroughly dislike Maestro (not only does it have a more powerful effect but it's also better in a FTF than the skills it augments replaces). BUT that still leaves ground for a more widely useful 'lesser exile': just have it kick someone other of the link, and have No 2 work against it. Hell, make it active only and you still get a decent option for breaking up defensive links that you'd otherwise struggle to FTF.
It is a B1 attack, so it is quite sketchy at best, and as such really only have a use in setting up an ARO to neuter a fireteam. It is great, in that it can mess with the tools people usually rely on – and it's quite easy to work around, just break the Fireteam, shoot the hacker and reform. So it is basically a game device, a hard counter, that forces players to learn more aspects of the game. It's akin to complaining about facing auto-cannons or repeater networks with a TAG list, or that MSV2+ neuters your expensive all-camo / ODD army. Its simply good games design to include these hard counters in a game, so you won't become a one-trick pony. It is not as if Fireteams are supposed to impregnable, they come with some big rewards and very few downsides. Fortunately you can deal with them without Exile – the only thing Exile really does is add some flavor to and force you to play differently vs. CA.
Things I'm loving in no particular order. 1. The artstyle and models. They just really drew me into this game. I remember constantly watching mini wargaming YouTube videos on infinity but I wasn't able to pull the trigger. The only minis game i played before was x wing which comes with pre painted assembled minis. I also remember going to gencon and seeing the operation ice storm poster and I just absolutely loved the artwork. I kept going back to it while wandering the hall then finally checked out that area in detail and there was a little board set up that had a crashed drop ship with three fusiliers and three alguaciles and that completely sold it for me. Just that little thing told me a story that I wanted to be apart of and I immediately bought the icestorm set. CB has just been killing it lately with the models and artwork. I use to think the military orders was the ugliest faction model wise and now they're easily one of the most bad ass looking ones. I don't even mind the minis based on pop culture at all. I think it's a cool nod to fans. 2. The fluff and narrative. I really enjoy the fluff of infinity and it feels like lately they've been putting more effort into it and making it a big deal. I've been reading my uprising and absolutely loving it. I really like what they're doing with the jsa and the uprising book has some really cool tie ins with other events that have gone on. 3. Model assembly. The new models have been getting easier and easier to put together. I was hilariously bad with putting these models together even with the ice storm models. Then I got some of the older ones and it was a nightmare. That plus how the older ones look next to newer models has made me pretty much never use the older models unless I absolutely love them. Also thank God for now making both arms already attached to the weapon. I hated having to attach both arms to the body and then try and get the one arm to connect to the wrist that was modelled on the weapon. Now that's all one piece and is great. One downside is I can see conversions being harder with the newer models since they're in fewer pieces. 4. The na2. I've always liked mercenary factions in games and the na2 doesn't disappoint. Great way to add more factions into the game without a huge investment. 5. Mixed fireteams. Really cool way to buff some units and gives a nice special forces team feel. Hopefully neo terra gets some. 6. ITS. I feel like this season and last season have been great. I don't feel like I have to run camo spam or that I'm at a disadvantage with pano in the button pushing dept. I also like the buffs to tags and I like the narrative stuff they've been doing. 7. The B.O.W narrative campaigns. Speaking of the narrative I know people either love these or hate these but I enjoy them for what they are. They give me and my friends games some extra purpose. Plus we play with some modified spec ops rules to give ourselves a character that we use in all of the lists to have a common character for out bat reps and we write them in a narrative style so we have fun with it. I do think some improvements could be made and it is definitely far from perfect. 8. The new proxy rule. I believe most people were always fine with proxying and not gonna penalize someone for using a different model even though one exists for that profile despite if it's awful looking. Things I'm not loving in no particular order. 1. The chain of command and Kirpal Singh ruling. Used to be a cool way to stop loss of lieutenant but now I have a hard time justifying bring in Singh. 2. PanO being boring. Not to sound like I'm whining but my original faction definitely feels like the boring faction. I get we are the good at shooting faction but sometimes I'd like more. Honestly it seems like CB's way of making "interesting" pan o units is to slap mimetism on it and call it a day. My NCA got locusts which was definitely a nice touch but the Druze feel like how NCA is supposed to feel. They have a good mix of firepower and tricks. 3. Knauf and Emily not being in Neo Terra. I know that they both are part of the hexahedron anymore and are apparently working with star co after the outrage manga but they would be great for neo terra! I want Emily leading a link team of fusiliers or bolts with knauf providing cover fire. I really like the hexahedron and they'd fit perfectly into that kind of list! Also why is Knauf in the MRRF? 4. The outrage characters without official profiles. This is a dumb argument I known and it's gotten weaker with the release of uprising. We can use Emily and uhahu now which is nice but I'm hoping we eventually get the rest of them either as generic mercs or in their home vanilla factions. I definitely understand the answer of them being dead and I can't think of any other dead in the fluff characters who are still in the game so I guess it makes sense lol. Atleast they're great proxies and I have good uses for all of them, just need to paint up a stallion jack anaconda. 5. Hacking. Pretty much all the other reasons that were said. Too many programs and killer hacking being super strong. Also Swiss guard needs a killer hacker profile.
Looks like thread is more about stuff you love or not from Infinity rather than CB, so I will speak about Infinity too. Love: - General mechanics: deployment, order sequence, movement, AROs , order pool, modifiers, burst, objetives, lieutenant... even critical hits. - Variety of units, lot of choices and tactics - Diversity on factions and their playstyles - They really got a deep and tactical game - Fairly good fluff, different faction aesthetics - Awesome minis Not love: -Too much rules (many of them being unnecesary ) and awkward rules interactions , need to be simplified , learning curve extremely high - Some factions feels boring, particulary Pano - Generics too much influenced by sectorials, leading to bizarre lists. CB should be diligent adressing this problems, for example being more restrictive on generics troop's equipment, skills, ava, ruling also joined ava... - A lot of troops lack of interest because of uninteresting special skills or not skills at all(Orc, zuyong...)or are clearly worse than other options in the army. - Many units are unnecesary and could be joined in a single one, like zuyong and wu mings - Extra costs, units with barely useful equipment /skills . Not a good way to balance - Lack of basic equipment , too restricted access to basic tactical gear like grenades, smoke gr, flash gr... Also grenades or charges are not good enough - Chain rifles, too big template (I killed a sniper in a tower once ,no kidding) and the King of assimetric trades , maybe damage should be downgraded - Too hard and risky CC, need a small buff - Too much weapons not enough different - Too much situational equipment, skills and ammo (extra costs and unnecesary rules) - AP ammo not good enough - Dogged and NWI too good or too cheap. Worse, Dogged often carry chain rifle - Useless cheerleaders - Packaging: mediocre troops filling boxes , repacks ... - Minis very hard to mount and paint - Not enough information about good scenography, despite of being a critical factor - Too much sectorials and no easy information about them for newbies - CB being too slow fixing problematic / Useless rules and profiles - CB more interested in releasing more sectorials than polish the already existing ones and polishing rules - How they are handling JSA split - Very few irregulars despite requires very good tactics - Not a big gap on damage rolls (sniper rifle just +10% over combi for example ) - Impetuous too good or too cheap - Healing needs a buff
