Mmm i love the different points of veiw about what make Yu Jing strong. I'm on the side of considering kuang Shis a very good warband ( from under 10 points range). For Sun Tze i agrre is too expensive, the advantages that give are good but you still have a 70 points model with only a multi ( + 29 of cheap CoC). As a faction i see Yu Jing very flexible. Most of our non basic units have multi roles, even the HI ( with the exception of Wu Mings and Terracotas). The main think i dislike from Yu Jing is the Kuang Shi dependence. I will agree to have cheaper Zhansi ( 10 points?), a little discount in some middle profiles ( such as terracota, wu mings and Imperial agents) and a bit more expensive kuang shis.
We have to use the Shock CCW guy, or pay for a combi on a BS9 Buddhist ISIS recruit. Shock CCW is... boring. I guess its useful if you face a lot of NWI?
Or Dogged Warbands etc. Shaolin are one of the most cost-effective Warbands in the game, so I'm just a bit surprised at them being dismissed so thoroughly. Especially given the thread subject...
They are good, but god would I love the option of swapping for an AP CCW on the Chain Rifle profile. Or that old typo and legend, the Chain Rifle, EXP CCW Shaolin. They are good warbands, but they have only one useable profile.
Errr... may be true for most warbands where there's both more than one option and an option for a sub-10 profile (which is a minority of all warbands), but even then I've seen you make a point about Morlocks not being limited to the cheapest profile exclusively. Still, wouldn't hurt trimming them a bit, no?
Although Kuangshis are not warbands. they are probably one of the best LI next to Muttawiahs The problem is not the zhanshi, The problem resides on the middle cost troopers (Zhanyings, Pheasants, Tigers, Baos, guilangs, ninjas....) that trend to be more expensive than the average. This are the troops a player want to align for being special, gain flexibility or cover a specific role and it's where most of our points trend to be spent. This situation ephatises with our expensive HI stars. This is where the Kuangshi comes to play and help to cover that "overprice" and that's why they are so needed outside Limited Insertion. Y miss some interesting troops on the 17-27 cost range (thats the cost of cheap skirmishers, vanilla IMs like hellcats,...). We've lost aragotos and raidens. And we have now space to new profiles to cover that spot
Yeah, you're really only seeing downsides. This topic isn't about negativity. The Su-Jian is the only non tag unit in the game that can take 3 crits to the face in one round of shooting and still be standing. You can take all three wounds from a rocket hit and still be in NWI. That lets you take bigger gambles and tougher engagements than an aragoto as you can hang in there and grind hector/achilles/etc down over several orders worth of shooting. Want to take a hit to the face from an EXP round in exchange for burning off ODD? You can do it. Resilience is expensive and Su-Jian really aren't that expensive. Including their first unconscious level -> NWI trick they can almost take as much damage as two regular HI. An aragoto is a light harassment unit. A Su Jian with a boarding shotgun can take out an HI link team or Steel Phalanx HI character. So don't take the Rui Shi in limited insertion. In a 15-20 order list and supported by a hacker and smoke LGL in the second group it is a beast. Shoot a bulletteer out of smoke with your assisted fire Rui Shi and you'll see which is twice the value - the Rui Shi is a HARD counter to bulletteers! It is also a hard counter to ODD/TO/camo, which can be problematic to get rid of otherwise. In my games I reliably kill 2-3 ARO pieces, frequently one or two cheerleaders then can often leave an assisted fire, suppressive fire MSV2 remote downfield that the opponent has to spend orders to remove before advancing. On a 20 point model. Which is apparently bad. Yeah... ok. Sun Tze gives you two orders and an extra command token. Strategos reserve shenanigans should not be underestimated, it's a game winning ability that lets you force and exploit weaknesses in enemy deployment. Killing isn't everything, scoring is important too, and this season so is having a datatracker that can't be easily knocked out. I won my last game at Adepticon when Sun Tze scored his 65 points as datatracker after flash pulsing two attackers shooting him and killing a Fiday that surprise shot him. I would not have traded him for any other model in turn 3 of that game. Multirifle is often the better profile, because suppressive fire on top of his mimetism and resilience is worth 5 points a lot of the time. Shaolin are fine. So we have vanilla HI. You need those for links. We also have: a TO HI beast in the Hac Tao an MSV2 HI gunfighter in the Hsien a sensor & camo hunting close quarters HI in the crane the only camo HI in the game with the Dao Fei the only transforming robot assassin HI in the Su Jian the only HRMC ARM 5 HI in the Yan Huo. oh yeah, Yan Huo also does the only neurocinetics double missile Arm 5 HI... ouch! We have flavors of HI other factions simply don't have. Yay for Yu Jing!
Nobody's saying they're not cost effective, just they're pretty boring with only 1 not crap profile. Compared to say Morlocks who have say 3, there's alot of choice to add personal flavour available there. I know someone's gonna pipe up and say "Ghazi only have 1 good profile." You're forgetting the part where Ghazi bring so much overpowered kit it's not funny. Monks don't rate on their scale.
Okay, so seeing you people have all these ideas about lists, how would you approach Biotecvore at 300 Limited Insertion with the profiles we have left? 'Cause I'm clueless as to how my vanilla Yu Jing should play that, and I have a tournatement pretty soon I kinda want to play with Yu Jing.
What are the other scenarios? Are you expecting to use this list for anything else or just biotechvore?
I think the crane has the highest BS of any sensor unit in the game? Effective BS10 at 48", regardless of any ODD, TO, cover, or nimbus zones (in particular), with a possible -9 or -12 MOD on return fire (if a nimbus zone is down), with a -1B penalty for ARO? With your choice of ammo, for LI, MI or HI? Sounds perfect for stripping fireteams at extreme range...
On first blush I'd probably try some variant of this: Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 SÙ-JIÀN Spitfire, Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 59) SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 57) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) KǍNRÈN Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 29) XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, MadTraps / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) TIGER SOLDIER Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) 4 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Everything but the guilangs has at least a BTS of 3. All of your units with STR (su jian, rui shi, lu duan) are both fast and have BTS 6. Sun Tze is pretty great for this scenario for three big reasons: 1) The hurty zone can't kill him by itself until turn 3 so you can leave him in there if need be and use his two orders on your other figs. 2) He gives you two orders. 3) you get an extra command token for coordinated orders. Even if you don't risk confused deployment, the guilangs deploy in a marker state to give them a little more freedom of movement. Kanren can also deploy in marker state but can easily be swapped with a KHD ninja if that's your preference. You've got a little bit of smoke from the CG, Xi Zhuang gets you more templates and some mad traps. Tiger does what tigers do best. There's a fair bit of flexibility for taste in here. I'd say the core of it is Sun Tze, Su Jian, Rui Shi, Lu Duan, and a hacker so you can take the rems. Another 'module' you might consider is the Pangguling and a duo of shang ji or wu ming. That might look something like this: Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 9 1 1 SÙ-JIÀN Spitfire, Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 59) SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 57) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) KǍNRÈN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, MadTraps / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 28) PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25) WÚ MÍNG Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33) WÚ MÍNG (Fireteam: Duo) Chain Rifle, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
To give you a different flavour Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 4 DÀOFĚI Lieutenant Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (1.5 | 55) GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26) GŬILÁNG Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) HSIEN HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61) Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) GROUP 2 3 2 2 NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Chain of Command) Red Fury / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1 | 35) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army essentially lead out with the shaolin. Throw smoke to the side if you're facing strong ARO, ie. force a normal roll and just eat the ARO. Especially near the Hsien. This will hopefully cover many of your kuangshi, who can impetuous forward freely. Remember, casualties amongst these guys is fully acceptable. With smoke hopefully down (on 16s!, or use irregular to try again) you will use the Hsien to punish any really annoying ARO units. BS14 hmg through smoke will wipe the floor with just about any unit in the game. Even against MSV the smoke will prevent surprise hidden deploy ARO. Once ARO units are down, throw some coordinated order (or order if your opponent has limited you) to get your controller and 3 kuang shi out of the zone. (you move-moved your kuang shi in the safety of smoke). Try not leave them in the open, but don't spend too many orders moving kuang shi, just get them somewhere you opponent needs to spend orders getting shots on, but not right next to buildings otherwise their impetuous runs them around corners quickly. You'll need a couple more orders for the doctor and hsien. in CG 2, deploy the chaiyi on ARO duty, preferably covering a lane near the dao fei and leave it there. We're going to use its order to get our pheasant up safely. If it looks like you might need to shoot, or need more than 2 orders, depoy your ninja as a camo marker near 1 of the guilangs in total cover looking like its covering a flank maneuver. Now the fun starts, what ever orders you've got left, save yourself 2 (if the pheasant is super safe, feel free to use the Lt order as well). Use the rest to push the Dao fei up into a good bit of cover where he is within 24" of your opponents board edge. Ideally you've have him somewhat central, and then choose left or right and deploy him so the other side can't get a bead on him. Enter suppressive mode. move other models to cover his blind spots. Enjoy as your opponent has to deal with a BS13 -9 Mod B3 aros. Arguably the multi-rifle profile is better for this, but you might need the spitfire to help clear ARO threats your Hsien can't get to quickly.
I really like where your head is for this, but Aldo did specify limited insertion in their original post. What would you do given that restriction?
