So. Played my first game against Tohaa. Still getting the grips on how to deal with some of the stuff you guys put together: The first, is obvsiously symbiomates. I think that is the one thing that makes Tohaa completely different from any other armies - the fact that you can take a risk once with a troop with no drawbacks. That coupled with some mean troops can make for a very tough game. So, first question: How do you guys think its a effective way to get rid of the mates? Another question: Oponent fielded a Rasail + Mate. It got hit by a flamethrower, and he used the mate to prevent the damage. Does he loose the nanoscreen?
First of all: Try to crit more often. Usually works for some people. Seriously, i am also lost against tohaa. I won once. because my enemy was new to the army. As for Nanoscreen: Nanoscreen is fire-sensitive. For the Trooper to become burnt is hast to make the ARM roll. Symbiomates bypass the ARM roll, so no. The Nanoscreen remains.
To deal with Tohaa get TAGs and Heavy we don't have much AP Ammunition...symbiomates are useless against crits so crit ;) wiki says to Symbiomate: If its user, the trooper who the SymbioMate has been assigned to, is in the Active Symbiont Armor state and receives a successful Attack and declares the use of his SymbioMate, he will not perform an ARM/BTS or the correspondent roll, and the Damage and "effects" of the Special Ammunition or Attack will be ignored. However, the SymbioMate will be removed from the game table at the end of that Order. Any other successful Attacks, including their Damage and effects, received by the user during the same Order will also be ignored. So it also cancels all effects with other words the nanoscreen is not burnt
The problems with Tohaa I think that they don't see a lot of play so everyone is unused to fight them. Our weakness: Rocket launcher, they are aoe, we like to cluster, they are fire, good against our 3 wounds units, they are long range, our strenght lies in mid range and close range mostly. Camo Marker the only good MSV unit is our Gao-Rael most of the time we got 1 of them with sniper everyone else has bad luck against camo marker. TAGs and HIs as I said we got boarding shotgun with AP, Missile Launcher with AP few other AP Ammunitions so we need to get close with most to use it, we have some strategies to fight them but they are a bit more complicated for example binding the hi in cc and then shoot with others etc
We only have Triads which means kill one of a triad its broken we can't do duo Also we are don't really have surprises TO->Clipsos probably FO and Combi maybe sniper Camo->Igao Boarding Shotgun great in CC TAG->Gorgos Sniper->Nikoul, Gao-Rael Combat Jump->Gao-Tarsos Kerail->Smoke Trick together with Gao-Rael probably etc We don't have a lot of playroom What I hated as Tohaa: HIs with a Doctor or Engineer behind in partial cover Template weapons White Noise Tons of Camos
Tohaa are a tough bunch with too cheap multible wound stuff (including Mates). To be honest, the easiest way to win versus Tohaa is not to aim for killing stuff. You will have to spend a huge amount of orders for doing so when you face one of the typical Tohaa lists. Focus on the scenario and hope for the best. Area control is important against Tohaa, so try to bring at least a few Camo tokens in the center field of the board (and try to place mines and/or perimeter weapons). Redundancy helps a lot versus Tohaa. If you offer a Tohaa player a target to focus on, he will do so - and will bring it down eventually (ususally sooner rather than later). As dull as it sounds: the (usually) easiest lists to go versus Tohaa with are spam lists. Bring more orders than the Tohaa player. Bring DTW like Chainrifles to make him loosing his cheap(-ish) Heavy Flamers. I won't recommend relying on Heavy Armor too much as Tohaa can bring quite some AP (besides other things) since quite a while. Aiming for getting rid of one of each of the Triads' members isn't such a big deal anymore. It still helps, but a team of two stil keeps the Makaul from being impetuous. If you can (and have to), try to focus on the only weakness Tohaa still have to face: no 6th sense. So, the dull Smoke + MSV2+ trick could be of some help. Besides that: pray for crits.
Symbiomates are order wasters. When you see one you know you will have to blow an order to get rid of it unless you can get your Tohaa opponent to let you remove it in ARO. You will never see more than four Symbiomates and those people are just being jerks. There is no real reason to take more than two unless you are facing 20+ order spam armies. If you are playing limited insertion there is no reason to take Symbiomates unless you are trying to get even more hate on our poor faction. We get enough hate as it is. Depending on the unit you may want to just ignore whatever has a Symbiomate on it. Treat it like you would a TAG that you forgot to bring weapons to deal with. Starve its order pool. Another thing is to play for the mission. Many times you can just leave the unit alone and win because it was a sniper that was covering a fire lane. If it's a Rambo unit just set up fire lanes that will force it to use it's Symbiomate before it gets close. Mines and forward units with DTWs will force the Tohaa unit to make a choice to use the Symbiomate or dodge around wasting your opponent's order pool.
Yes, as @ChoTimberwolf said teamplates and fire are our nightmares. Moving around the table several Fireteams means that usually we'll have some troopers very close to their mates. My worst nighmare is a camo infiltrator with flamethrower: without Sixth Sense or hight PH, you are likely to hit. Without high ARM, Tohaa easly and quickly burns to death. Also, keep in mind that Tohaa win games just resisting to die while the oponent expends orders. That means that we aren't good at wining FtF rolls, as we don't have many means to apply modifiers. Without having access to very high CD or ARM values, if you stack enought modifiers you'll wound (and eventually kill) any Tohaa. If you focus in the weakest member of the Triad, it'll loose efectiveness. The final advice is to learn to identify what is each trooper, because being a faction with very few profiles the roles are very clear: - Guy with MSV2? That's the Gao-Rael. If you kill it TO, ODD and Smoke will work unoposed. - Camo on the field? Igao (frenzy ninja, not specialist) or Mine -> Clipsos nearby. - TO? our only TO is the Clipsos, a very plain TO infiltrator. - Symbiomates? One Kaeltar specialist with Chain of Command. Don't bother trying too hard to kill the Lt. And so on.
Sorry thought it would break the link if it gets below three my bad just looked it up I was wrong ;) Yeah as Abrilete said, also you will rarely see a Tohaa List with the TAG or a HI.
And as others said focus the mission I had games there I had over 200pt in army left and the enemy below 100 and still lost, but to be honest I fucked up in that game...fucking hunting party
Symbiomates are strong and do give Tohaa a very nice edge. Having said that I think the focus on any faction is to notice their weakness and try to exploit that. First thing is I think Tohaa’s Symbiomates seem strong as not many people play Tohaa and like anything the first few times can be a bit of a puzzle on how to beat them. Once you do though you get a handle on how to manage their pieces. Tohaa don’t get access to 5 man link bonus, nor do they to hacking or supportware REMS. All these can be used to cause Tohaa a bit of pain. Once you understand their units you will also see what to target. Many people will try to strip a Rasail of it’s symbiomate rather than target the Chaksa helper. For an Auxilia I can understand but the Rasail is an different beast. There are times taking out the Chaksa makes the Rasail team far less scary. One of the big things I know Tohaa do not like to face is the 5 man HI pain train. With no hackers we are almost reliant on guns to try and take things down. If you have an ML + HMG in link you can almost guarantee to make them spend orders trying to manage this. They will most likely win in their active turn but with luck you have a doctor/helper bot near by and can bring back the core link. Once it’s up again you can go to town with them. The other things would be to use templates as stated above. Though a smart Tohaa player will use eclipse smoke you are forcing them to spend orders to throw/use it to move up which is what you’re hoping for. Tohaa get a lot out of triad synergy. You want to make them work hard for positions. Also knowing what the weaknesses in triads may be. TO camo picking off non-active team members can be deadly. Especially if it’s a makaul/specialist you can ruin their smoke/specialist delivery systems quite well.
Why the hell would you not run Mates in LI? They give you CoC, and the "wasted order" is even more damaging to the opponent in LI games where order efficiency is at a premium. Symbiomates are an entirely unique effect that breaks most of the rules of Infinity, and I don't think Tohaa pay the cost for this in other ways.
Symbiomates are an annoyance, my brother used to hate playing against my Tohaa (it got better when we both read the part about crits, oops...) but they aren't the end of the world once you get used to them and Tohaa in general. As mentioned Tohaa have traded just about everything for durability, so you have two options (well three including play the objectives) use better troops as you will most assuredly have something that outclasses whatever Tohaa unit you're fighting so an Aquila or Yan Huo, even a Hsien will all laugh at just about everything Tohaa has to offer; or use something even more durable than what the Tohaa can bring to bear, case and point the Gecko-bro's, I have rammed my head into those things so many times and so many ways and they will still generally come out on top. He's been away at school so i'm hoping for a rematch now that I've got my Sukeul's. though another thing to avoid against Tohaa, weapons that use BTS damage, most units have some BTS..."armor?" making traditional bullets on the whole more effective. my two cents, hopefully its useful.
Honestly every fractions got its strenght and its weaknesses, NWI is annoying the proxies of Aleph, nanofilament weapons or how they called etc and saint yes Sukeuls are pretty much our best units ;) these girls are just amazin
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the most obvious strategy to get rid of Symbiomates. A good user of a Symbiomate will always take the Symbiomate off on the first ARM roll caused to the unit, bar a situation where the hit is taken by a TAG, Ectros or Rasail. Therefore, to make him 'waste' the Symbiomate it's best to just shoot with high RoF weapons or shoot weapons that have a good chance to win the necessary F2F roll (let's say your Shotgun Igao vs their Sniper with a Symbiomate in Shotgun preferred range), to make sure that at least one shot goes through - regardless of the weapon's damage. Then, when the Symbiomate is no more you can bring the real guns that are supposed to kill the target.
Neither have vanilla factions access to those. Well their chaksa servants/auxbots have nice advantage of having no penalty to dodge/hacking while sporting nice option of pistol (although lacking electric pulse). Oh and mimetism on those to sweaten the deal^^ (they lack "combat" rems but haqq also lack those) Well unless it's makaul who happens to "dodge" into eclipse smoke due to him having almost always better odds than you.... (B2 on 13 if you make surprise attack).
And where's an advantage here ? Pokemon just made you "wasted" your order (on assumption you had won F2F and it is not Ectross with 2W symbiotarmor). Mission accomplished for pokemon!
I assume his point is a) you avoid the enemy to do a move+move, then move + shoot in his best range. And b) if a tohaa troop loses his symbiont, loses access to the tohaamon, so... My suggestion to deal with tohaa is universally sound: an inferno of fire :P
Another benefit of high ROF weapons, good chance of getting crits, had a rasail with symbiomate enemy gets two crits my mate was completly useless :(
