At least the KHD is cheap and has dep rep. Pitchers are better but I think dep rep are cheaper. For the Asparas main loadout it is the skill itself that needs a rework. Yes Aleph should be a candidate for the new Cyberplug, but to honest, I dońt like to get more and more pheripherial rules. Good point. BS 13 keeps it price high and has no actual use for a unit that is designed to stay in the back and control REMs.
The Apsara is a REF troop so that could be why it has BS13 but still stupid. The REF version also has a regular HD with Trinity and both hackers have SR -1 on it. Still not not worth it to me. If i played REF Aspsara is not one of them.
I don´t know anyone that play REF. I kinda like the mod but more for some campaign games. Apart from "Cybermask" die REF Apsara Hacker with Trinity Mod is 1 pts and 0,5 swc over the KHD (okay dif. weapon and no dep reps). For a hacker definity the better choice. Deployable Repaters are also not much gain on her profile. They should equipp Nagas and/or Dasyus with them. Apsara could be convertet to a pure support unit. One or two REM Driver loadouts, a TAG-Support loadout and maybe keep a hacker loadout (preferable the REF HD profile). Give her minelayer and cyber or em mines to secure her place. That will keep the theme.BS down to 12.
N3 Apsara used to boost remotes with her stats, thats why she had bs13. Now after they reworked her into having remracer skill they could change the stats to make her cheaper, but that would require effort and goodwill for Alephs sake...
I said we needed something cheap (line trooper) and I got jumped on because Aleph is elite faction and we don't do cheap (besides a Deva, with maybe a bonus or a bonus program, is better than Apsara) . Personally I never used Apsara KHD, I used remdrive, but I understand that remdrive may turn into a liability unless you have those points to spare and you don't know what to put and obviously if they don't change remdrive. It could be interesting, on top of changing target, to give a specific stat to transfer. Put in a pitcher too and it starts to be something worth the points. Apsara, for being spec. trained troops, they are not spec ops, they are not wildcards in OSS and they don't fit in any fireteam so it's a LI trooper isolated that cost 10pts more than a netrod that rarely see the battlefield from outside the deployment zone (like a netrod, so the whole importance of a KHD is diminished too). Apsara can become an additional line trooper option (with fireteam options, goes without saying), but do require at the very least Courage. Then we can talk about how to differentiate since they are spec trained, so a minelayer version? hidden deployment? I'm speedballing here...
Do we have any more ideas for the box and the beyond box? I would really like to see the VH in the beyond box
Do we have any more ideas for the box and the beyond box? I would really like to see the VH in the beyond box
I’d like to see more diverse Repeater deployment options and more hacker-centric content. To be honest, the current OSS doesn’t feel like a top-tier hacker faction at all. Also, we definitely need more REMs with a wider range of utilities.
I highly doubt that we see a VH in the beyond box. Its not designed for that. VH comes in the wave of realeases after in single box - if Aleph get one at all (it should). Yes - as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, OSS should get more hacking oriented and for that it needs better network building options. I think we have enough REM (I would count Dakini, Riksha etc. in) but more utility is a thing. A repeater on a S2 REM, maybe a pitcher opiton on a non-hacker model etc. PS: Nothing new for the box contend. PS2: anyone else notice that the forum is slow? They put the server to Ariadna?
Why the Rudra is? Customs are not rules and can be changed in any situation. I once asked if they were going to release the second Apsara model and they answered "we are reducing the number of boxes" which means: no one box for one model unless there is no alternative, price walls to get one miniature which is easier on the secondary market. I generally don't like this new policy, but hey... it ain't my house... Thank you! It's like a slapchop job: you put some generally elite models (nothing exuberantly too fancy, safe for 2 or 3 models) with loadouts that don't synergize then call it the elite hacker faction because there are more hackers than in SP... I'll be honest: I was happy when I found out that I could play 15 orders with OSS... hang on a minute! An Elite faction with 15 orders... there is something that doesn't quite add up
A VH is a TAG sized and priced product so I still strongly doubt that they would sell it at part of the beyond box.
I agree on that. They want to make sure the boxes are affordable too. One flyer alone is a lot of money.
I disagree with the notion that having 15 orders automatically means a list isn't "elite." A 15-order list can be built by concentrating 150 points into just 3 key models, or it can be built with a more distributed approach where each trooper costs between 10 to 30 points.
I think Aleph has good hackers but they don’t have the tools to use them well. Like combat jumping repeaters, fast pandas, pitcher shooters that can hit the mark. The only troop with a deployable reapeater is the Apsaras who starts in the DZ and not even a minelayer. I have no confidence of it getting to where it needs to be. They could add Deployable Repeaters to Garuda, Naga and/or Daysus. A repeater option to Netrods. Add a pitcher to Yadu or Rudras. Give Deva, Danavas, and others Fast Pandas.
Granted Angus! "Science can prove that an elephant can dangle from a cliff with the tail tied to a daisy, in a nuclear Physics laboratory" (cit.) but experience shows that an elite army trades quantity for quality. The 75th Regiment (Rangers) counts less than 4000 troopers, it's 1 brigade vs the structure of the American infantry that can get up to 50,000 for a Corp. The reasoning is 1 Ranger counts for 10 Marines. Obviously this is a disproportion that cannot be captured on the table top, not just for Infinity. Typically though, Ariadna has always been the faction fielding more miniatures and more orders because low tech. Recent version (N4) saw a cap of models (to some extent even orders) to 15 to address model/order spam and this somehow shifts the problem to make low tech factions a bit more high tech (sacrifice number for a bit of quality)... and in turn it needs to bring high tech factions to higher tech because otherwise the balance of power is not maintained. So I would argue that Aleph being elite should not have 15 orders because the troopers are more expensive than other factions (and should have the skills to be so)... or Aleph is not elite, tertium non datur. I did play a game of "Hector and his friends" (150pts) to max the number of orders... they kill Hector and my game is finished, I can tell you for personal experience. Now Infinity is a game of dice and failing ARM checks is a possibility, I can tell you (never ever rolled so badly in my entire life, 3 failed for an HMG brought me to NWI then a Chain rifle in the face...) Which brings me to @Space Ranger: That is a pivotal point, I would probably not go as far as saying that REMs should also be repeaters (because it also creates a vulnerability), but there is a lack and I think the troopers you identify are very reasonable. Also the hackers need to be made a bit more elite than what they are because non elite hackers have bonuses (programs or number bonuses) that, in general, OSS does not have (saved for a very limited number).
Which brings us to the beginning of this discussion in 25 - were we all - more or less agree, All good options - we will see if CB is willing to bring us only one of them.
From my perspective, "Elite" isn't just about the total head count; it’s about the "effective troop count" and the "quality of those effective troops." Aleph can easily reach 15 orders by using Netrods and Lamedh REMs. However, the number of units capable of conducting actual offensive maneuvers or scoring mission objectives is often lower than that of other factions. Consider this example: Two armies of 5,000 men have the same total combat power. Army A has 1,000 logistics personnel and 4,000 combat troops. Army B has 2,500 logistics personnel and 2,500 combat troops. In this scenario, the combat troops in Army B are clearly more elite because each individual must carry a much higher proportion of the total combat load. Aleph is undoubtedly an elite faction and should showcase its technological superiority, but I believe this should be reflected through their equipment and skills, rather than just forcing them into a specific list size.
This is a tabletop game, it's a modelling of reality, not a photo of it.. The end of the first paragraph contradicts the beginning of the second. I would agree that Aleph is elite in BACKGROUND, but not in facts. Reflecting the elite-ness of Aleph through equipment and skills (which I agree wholeheartedly) has a price and that will inevitably lead to a reduction of headcount: Netrods AVA2 (12pts) Lamedh AVA2 (14pts) Daleth AVA2 (30pts) and here I draw the line: this isn't already a very cheap order option and tac awareness and repeater doesn't quite qualify for the kind of filler you're talking about. So effectively you can count 4 troopers as fillers with the intention to reach 15 minis fielded. Already 2 Posthumans take 2 spots and 1 order (limit is 15 models, not orders) and then you definitely need hard hitters and button pushers otherwise getting out of DZ is already quite the task. So the idea behind it IS for something more on the elite side, but alas! it falls short because also of what I was showing with the match-ups and back to back analysis a few posts ago. The bottom line is that the money better be where the mouth is come Mazebreaker... or re-think the role of Aleph entirely (which was the line of thinking behind "let's talk about cheap orders/impetuous" a few posts back). So yeah! bring on more Equipment and skills because there are gaps to fill!
There is no contradiction in what I said. Netrods and Lamedhs lack any actual combat lethality or objective-scoring capabilities. In terms of role, they aren’t combatants; they are logistics or even just 'cheerleaders.' If you're looking for cheap filler, Probots are also an option. If you subtract the total cost of these units from the 300-point limit, the remaining points belong to the actual combat and mission specialists. For those units, the average point cost is indeed higher than in other factions. I believe that as long as a list can be filled with a large number of mid-tier units, it is difficult to achieve the 'elite' vision you're imagining. In this game, the order pool is too critical, and it’s far too easy for a single unit to be neutralized. This is a fundamental mechanic that is hard to change. If units are so expensive that the headcount can't reach the cap, it simply makes the army extremely fragile. I think the current state of Aleph is already quite closely tied to being 'elite.' Based on my experience playing Aleph, O-12, and Haqqislam, here is how they feel when list-building: Aleph: Requires cheap cheerleaders to keep the army functioning. There are fewer units capable of actual combat, defense, or scoring, and the average cost of these specific units is much higher. O-12: Rarely has very cheap cheerleaders, but even the support units usually have a functional role. There are more units capable of combat/defense/scoring, so the average cost of non-cheerleader units is lower than Aleph’s. Every model generates a Regular Order and usually has a specific purpose, so you can't afford to lose them casually. Haqqislam: Standard cheerleaders are slightly cheaper, though not as cheap as JSA or Ariadna. Instead, they have access to inexpensive Irregular units. There are many units for combat/scoring, including a large number of Irregular models whose deaths have a smaller impact on the overall team. The list-building focuses more on the trade-off between Regular and Irregular orders, but the average cost of mission/combat units is still lower than Aleph’s.
From what you say one may think that O12 is the elite, Haqq is a mid-tear guerrilla like faction, but when it gets down to Aleph (also connecting to the previous comment on Equipment and Skills) just costs more still needing something to be on par with what is actually elite. The fewer units comment goes hand in hand with what I kept on saying from day 1: we need more viable options and the opening comment for Aleph: we need cheap cheerleaders. I hate to be auto-referential, but if you go back in the posts you'll see that those are the two prongs I have been repeating. That being said: Does 15 models for O12 keep the power level? I only played against TB and in no way he had 15 models on the table. Also SP can get to 15 models... but (huge "but") the "Hero and his friends" approach is not my cup of tea, I love my Machaon/Phoenix/Eudoros/Myrm team too much to sacrifice it for something that gives me more orders, but definitely much less table presence.
