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[April], come she will...

Discussion in 'News' started by Solar, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest Day in, Day out. Day in, Day out. Day in, DAY OUT

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    The JSA profiles are available to YJ until the Army Builder updates. Maybe mid-April the Army Builder updates, in time for the BoW campaign.
    There was no surprise here, Triumph. That Cb would do something that would anger YJ players was announced well in advance. That CB had no plan too allay that anger is also not really surprising.

    Say, are you the same Triumph who used to show up on the old Conan O'Brien show. The insult comic? This guy?
    [​IMG]

    Feel free to poop on this whole YJ fiasco. Maybe eat some undercooked Mexican street food, the kind with lots of corn and beans in it, before doing so.
     
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  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    There are only 2-3 posts, including my own, right above this that go over exactly what should've been done better by CB to offset this entire fiasco.

    But once again you didn't read them, further proving my point of your inability to do anything other than fanboy.
     
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  3. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a little unfair. As I tried explaining in my post above, I think the post did explain things but only really the fluff side (and even then I agree there has to be a degree of trust that the material Gutier talks about from the book will expand on things further).

    Let me try to help a little though:

    "Then we get a post with no actual real information pertaining to the mechanics or game implications in it and doesn't help us understand what the fuck is going on for vanilla"

    I get that you're frustrated, hell I'm in the same boat as you with purchasing a shikami but I also just purchased a pair of raiden and a Neko that I also can't use at all along with an Outrage box so that I could use Nakadai as an Oniwaban (as I didn't really like the original model). That said, we need to be precise in the complaints that we're making so that the trolls have no ammunition to throw back and the more neutral elements on this board see that the issues we're raising are legitimate rather than hyperbole that can be discounted to the usual internet whine.

    From there, some more concrete suggestions from everyone on how things might be improved such as the ones listed by Triumph above would be another fantastic step forwards.
     
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  4. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    CB said they were going to do something that might anger a large number of players. Removing JSA would certainly fit that category but so could a whole number of other possibilities so it only carries so much weight as a warning.

    However, you'd like to think that if they are aware that they're about to alienate/anger a large number of players the expectation for most normal companies would be that they are going to do something to allay that anger. So I totally disagree with you. It absolutely is surprising that they did nothing. Professional companies very rarely behave like this for a reason.
     
    #2204 BenMoss, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Not that CB is generally capable of as much malfeasance as the world's larger companies, but it's not like we get a vote in how CB does things, and it's not like they aren't entirely self-interested. They're a commercial entity. They do what makes them money, modified by the foibles of the people involved and how much they care about their art etc.

    My point with the analogy was not that people were disagreeing with me - it's that they were saying I wasn't allowed to have an opinion. There's a big difference, and the first group one can have a conversation with, and the second will not argue in good faith.

    As an example of arguing in bad faith, you're not saying it's a terrible analogy because it's a terrible analogy - you're saying it's a terrible analogy because it would naturally lead people to making conclusions that you don't want them to make.
     
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  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    You're not trying to have a conversation. You're trying to draw lines in the sand and say one side is wrong and the other is right.

    This isn't a situation where there is right and wrong, just opinions. The sooner you stop thinking your opinion is fact or absolute, stop using hyperbole, or crying for pity, the sooner people might engage with you on a more balanced level.

    You're attributing CB with a certain motivation, and because they've done "wrong" in your opinion, that they now owe you something. Mao doesn't think they've done wrong and therefore you don't have a leg to stand on.

    Further pointing out that Mao is wrong, using an analogy of right vs wrong is still based on the absolutely subjective opinion that what "has" been done is wrong.

    Bearing in mind, what has been done, hasn't actually been done yet. I can't fucking emphasise this enough, JSA models are still yu jing legal.

    We know they won't be, but we don't know what will happen with Yu Jing. But that hasn't happened, posters in this thread are literally getting angry about the imagined conclusion of an event still in motion.
     
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  7. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Again lets stock take on what everyone is angry about.

    CB have announced the JSA secession. There is a pre-order for JSA models to take part in said seccession. There has been teases about how this affects Yu Jing. Obviously JSA models leave Yu Jing.

    However, this has not happened yet. Expecting an explanation about something which hasn't happened yet is literally the most entitled thing I have encountered.

    Its not surprising because its insane. I don't have to explain to you about what you get after something I haven't done yet. Have some god damned patience.
     
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  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Ever so sorry that I responded to your latest bout of infantile whinging and whining before seeing the other post, which contained nothing of value, just more pissing and moaning about how a company should change what they’re doing to accommodate your infantile tantrum. And I’d sooner a fanboy with at least a modicum of maturity than the impossible to placate, weeks long tantrum you’re in the midst of, one that even a toddler would look at with disdain and disgust.
     
  9. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand the Uprising campaign. The references are extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of political science most of the plot will go over a typical reader's head. There's also Bostria's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily from classic Maoist literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of Warcor posts, to realize that they're not just unpaid shilling - they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Uprising truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Bostria's existential catchphrase "I've been drinking Yu Jing's players' tears," which itself is a cryptic reference to Romance of the Three Kingdoms I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Interruptor's genius unfolds itself on their reader screens. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way, I DO have a Japanese Secessionist Army tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for true Infinity players' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 10000 € of my own account (preferably lower) beforehand.
     
  10. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    For all intents and purposes it has happened. The army builder just hasn't been updated to reflect it yet.

    Patience can be placated with telling YJ players that stuff is coming down the line. None was given though so the lack of patience among some is not surprising. If YJ players got some reassurances when we do see the update then why not tell the YJ players that something like that is coming? That is the head scratching part if something like that does happen. Could of avoided the impatience and anger.

    Here's an upfront disclaimer. I could care less about the JSA split as a YJ player. I'm more interested in these PR moves.
     
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  11. Brawler

    Brawler Well-Known Member

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    Aaah! This is PURE GOLD, this has to be the first twitch-imitational copy-worthy pasta I have ever seen on the forums. You even checked all the boxes on a post to be worthy of a golden fedora! 1. Implying you need high IQ to comprehend the situation. 2. Implying that you understand the plot and therefore have high IQ. and 3. Calling everyone else idiots.

    Darn it, why didn't I think of making a post like this? I gently tip my fedora to you m'lady.

    EDIT: Errh, I also identify as an Apache attack helicopter.
     
  12. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    The reason CB are doing a tease is to help generate some excitement about the revamped JSA and by extension to sell some extra models. This all makes good business sense.

    If they know that it is going to generate a negative response from some elements then doing something to keep that group onside and less agitated is going to keep the conversation focused on the cool new stuff that you're releasing. All it would've taken is a "we know there are some holes in the current army and we'll be fixing those gaps for the upcoming tournament season". Instead, the main conversation thread is focused on the negatives rather than what could've been a great release for everyone.

    So no, I really don't think it would be insane to have said something. It's insane to let your PR campaign get this out of hand for no good reason.
     
    #2212 BenMoss, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Again with the fanboying. It really is all you are able to do.

    You complain nobody provides actual feedback, it gets pointed out that you're too busy shilling the company line to notice everybody else doing just that, and still you go on.

    I'm sorry your favourite idols fucked up so badly, I really wish they didn't, but it's quite apparent they've turned what should've been a wave of releases and a big community event into a total dumpster fire fiasco. It doesn't take a degree in marketing to realise that this event has been managed in a terrible manner and pissed away alot of customer goodwill.
     
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  14. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    IIRC that was announced long after Shikami was released, and info on this "something that some will like, others hate" event being concerning YJ specifically was in the dark 'till the last.

    I'm not sure on that last one though.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    We weren't aware that it was YJ specific until late Feb, even then it wasn't spelled out explicitly it was just those enough posters and speculation.
     
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  16. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    For all intents and purposes is an absolutely empty phrase in this context. I can't play new JSA right now. I can adhoc some teased profiles into the old JSA and pretend the unrevealed profiles remain the same. That is completely my own decision. However, yu jing players can still use JSA profiles, in friendlies and in tournaments until changes actually drop. What it does affect is planning, but thats just the nature of having a change. They've told you all you need to know for now for planning future events.

    We have some preview information about what will happen. But its some, not all.

    Other posters are asking CB to reveal part of their story (which is probably tied up in a big reveal still to come) early simply because they are upset about the first preview. Asking to be placated just because you are upset is fundamentally no different to me asking CB to tell me what will be released in September because its my birthday and I NEEEEED to allocate funds to give to them, but only if they release what I like.
     
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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Been away from the computer for a bit, got a lot to catch up on. My apologies for the overall length of this post, lots of stuff to catch up on.

    I can only hope that it's having a Speculo or Kempeitai infiltrated into the Imperial Service, in an attempt to allow the Japanese to Secede.

    Yeah, and for the last 12 years, Infinity fluff has been anything but cartoonish and simplistic. I bought my first Infinity:The Game rulebook in 2006.


    Nevermind, I don't think I can respond to this without coming across as insulting.


    PS, Yu Jing (more precisely, the founder of the Party, Chairman Mao) literally wrote the book on how to win a popular uprising.

    That agent's actions played right into the hands of the secessionists by giving the civilian population the impression that the Imperial Service is going to kill them all for being Japanese. The Japanese civilians now have nothing left to lose by rebelling in fact. That agent has made the uprising worse.



    Happily kill troops who get resurrected, mind you.

    And I am bitching about 'my faction' turning stupid and making their fluff problem worse.


    Yes, it does a good job of explaining why the change, except for why the Japanese models were tying up space in the YJ design space that couldn't be worked around.

    I disagree, but it doesn't answer some of the questions that were raised earlier in this thread. It would have been much better if it had answered questions about what kinds of changes YJ is going to see.

    I disagree a bit here. It does explain some changes to Vanilla YJ (including why they kept some Ninjas, though it's a disappointing reason IMO). But yeah, it really doesn't go far enough.


    Uhm... losing one of two sectorials overall (which is a representation of in-game faction strength), 4 of 6/7 named characters, 15 of 57 total profiles isn't "Gutted"?

    Damn, I'd hate to see what you consider "acceptable losses"? A modern military unit is considered combat ineffective after losing 1/3 of it's combat troops.


    OK, look. Like I told @psychoticstorm earlier, the Party (the people in charge of Yu Jing) literally wrote the book on how to win an insurgency starting from a small 'cadre'.

    The US (and everyone else) has written the book on how to defeat an insurgency using Mao's tactics. The fundamental step is to make the civilians, the non-combatants, like your side more than the insurgents. This is popularly called "winning the hearts and minds." The US screwed it up in Vietnam because the South was a bunch of self-defeating morons. The US generally succeeded in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria (though were usually limited in full follow-up due to political will).


    And people like me have never saved an army list in Army 6. Ever.


    While I agree, the problem with thumbs-downing is trolls. A few forum editions ago, we had a thumbs-down option that got nuked after some jerks decided to go through and literally thumbs-down every post in a thread. Never Again.


    "Yes, look at the beautiful smog!!!!"


    If that quote is in the book, expect a nasty comment.

    Psychological Warfare 101 (oh, hey, didn't some guy by the name of Sun say that all warfare is based on deception?): You explicitly blame the dead civilians on the other side! Especially if it's true.






    There is a third option: That said Crane is actually a Kempeitai or Shasvasti, actively trying to make YJ lose.

    For the sake of YJ, I really hope that's the case.


    Funny, The Book on counter-insurgency warfare was written around Asian cultures.

    Hearts and Minds works even better in Europe.


    And in the process of crushing it by force, they just convinced all the civilians that the civilians were better off siding with the rebellion.

    They just made their immediate problem worse!



    OK, just to recap a little personal history: From 2000 until 2006, I was in the US Navy. More specifically, I served on strategic missile submarines. My day job was to go out to sea and pray nobody was so fucking stupid as to start a shooting war big enough for us to fight in. In fact, the US Navy gave us awards for going out and not launching (which is unusual, the other submarine 'combat' award is given for actively sinking tonnage, enemy ships). At night, I slept not 3 freaking feet from a strategic missile tube, which, if loaded to full capacity, would utterly END up to a dozen cities, man, woman, and child alike. No innocents would survive. So yeah, I'm a little familiar with what kind of thinking someone whose daily work is state-sanctioned genocide.

    One of my friends post-Navy is currently a Captain (coming up for Major) in the US Army. He's a combat veteran of Afghanistan. We talk shop, in terms of strategies and tactics.

    While my friend was in Astan, his division grokked counter-insurgency warfare in non-Western cultures so well that a "major Taliban attack" was one dude with a freaking rifle or RPG taking shots.

    He got there by winning the hearts and minds, which got the locals to turn in the non-locals taking shots rather than having the Americans fight through their villages.


    It's not a matter of preserving separatist lives to uphold appearances, it's a matter of reducing how many people think secession is a good idea in the first freaking place!


    Thinking the way I have was my day job for 5 years, and I am still an occasional sounding board for people whose day job it is to fight and win against any enemy, foreign or domestic. Whether a non-state-organized insurgent or another nation's military.



    Because convincing the non-combatants that the only way they and their families have a chance of survival is if the secession succeeds is a great way to expand the immediate problem.

    I admit, I am assuming that The Party wants to remain in power of a strong, stable China Yu Jing. This is a fairly reasonable assumption, I think.

    Having an allegedly-educated high official (a Crane is like 2 steps from the Emperor Himself!) make a statement that drives theoretically-loyal people into the insurgency because they are afraid that the Dragon's Agents will kill them for being Japanese is working against the stated goals of keeping YJ strong and stable.


    One can only hope so.

    Shiwen's post below is so epic I need to break it down into smaller chunks to respond to, please pardon me.
    Again, this is a brilliant post that I feel bad for not quoting in it's entirety.

    Based on the old Campaign Paradiso book, which was ~216 pages, there were 102 pages of fluff and unit lists, etc. There were 52 pages of scenarios (about half of which was historical-outcome fluff).

    So there should be a lot of potential space for explaining how YJ remains a significant challenger (I don't want to say threat) to PanO. Hopefully it has been used, but we won't know until we get books in hand.


    Yes, that would have reduced a lot of people's stress-levels. I hope.


    Well, as you noted, CB has already seen fit to more-or-less railroad narrative-campaign plots regardless of how well a faction has done (say, Nomads losing their mobile shipyard La Forja at the end of Phase 1, even though we (I was playing Nomads for that one for something different) held it solidly.

    But I fully expect CB to do some faction games-weighting depending on how many players there 'should' be, not how many showed up to play. I mean, if PanO and YJ are both hundred-billion populations and the two largest economies in the Sphere, while Haqq and Nomads are 'merely' billions and Ariadna is millions, PanO and YJ games should count more than others just due to sheer number of bodies.


    As I've said before, I think the problem was that the cheap Domaru and Haramaki were making it difficult to make the Zuyong cheap enough to make the real Core Fireteams in the IA, while having them pointed correctly for vanilla.

    But it was ... [ searches for diplomatic phrasing ] very poorly thought out as to how the fanbase would react with losing a whole sectorial without a replacement.


    The reason I first got into infinity was the models. The gameplay at the time was aimed towards max realism, which I liked. And the fluff was a refreshing breath of fresh air compared to 40k or WarmaHordes. Nuanced, shades of gray instead of everyone being more or less black, even positive versions of Islam at a time when Islam was a rather popular 'epic evil' (my apologies to any Muslims on the forum). I admit, after playing 6+ years of max-realism, that N3 is generally a massive improvement in playability. Models have gotten even better.

    But I don't play much anymore.

    So having the fluff go south, well, really hurts, since I really, really grew to love the setting.


    Lol.

    Releasing a statement that people are taking to read as 'you [expletive deleted] Japanese are all going to die for the actions of some" of the hotheads still butthurt about having China bail them out when the economy tanked, which increases the duration and severity of the conflict does not help YJ's case.

    But yes, choosing now, when the Sphere is involved in an existential conflict with the Combined Army, to rebel is arguably treason against humanity as a whole. And I use the word treason deliberately, even though it is a *very* limited term in the American legal system.


    profile count lost has been addressed already (15 of 57 profiles, 4 of 7 characters, to re-iterate). But yeah, that first paragraph is the cause of a lot of hate and discontent expressed in this thread.

    IMO, the biggest kick in the teeth was the Shikami that was painted up in YJ colors when it wasn't going to be available in YJ much longer, which apparently CB has stated was a screwup. I was very surprised when that first Shikami was shown in YJ colors, it was the first time that a JSA model had been shown in vanilla colors!


    Yes, this is something I totally agree with but felt I needed to quote here for the rest of it to make sense.



    Exactly. While I appreciate that there were probably some ugly lists (I'm talking WarmaHordes-level "I win on Turn 1" here) with things like the Shooting Star AD HI and bikes or similar, the way this was handled was poorly done. Probably should have had IA ready to go for GenCon release.


    This is the part CB should really be worried about! IMO, Rackham/Confrontation failed as a company when they lost sight of what their core competency was. In Rackham's case, it was top-line metal models, and they basically folded when they went to prepainted plastics for Confrontation (this wasn't a problem with AT43 because AT43 was prepainted plastics from the beginning).

    For a dozen years, CB has been trying really hard to be really good about communicating with the player base. Even when New Release Day meant that the forums were down due to a self-inflicted DDoS attack, all the forumites hitting F5 every 3 seconds. The old hands remember what I'm talking about, the new guys won't want to believe us.

    But you could send a message to Bostria, or Koni, or Interruptor, and they'd usually respond pretty quickly.

    Mass graves, even in a passing reference that wasn't intended to be as the actions of the Imperial Service, is not something I can call minor.


    Yeah, I was thrilled to see the new models.


    It has a lot of information about *why* the changes were made. Not exactly what some people wanted, of course.

    Yes, I agree that it would be a really, really good idea for CB to address these concerns, which is why I'm reposting them and tagging @Bostria @Koni and @Interruptor to see this list of items.
     
  18. FatherKnowsBest

    FatherKnowsBest Red Knight of Curmudgeon

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    Fair dinkum explanation. You were one of the people I approached online via PM some 8 years ago when I was starting out after all lol.
     
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  19. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    1) Perhaps knowing that "Yes, you get IA/White Banner" later would be nice, but being assured it's one of the four coming, is that enough for you? Because knowing the exact date of that one means that in all fairness, we should know the other three, no? Yes, Remainder Yu-Jing got the short end of the stick here but IMO just knowing you're getting something later is the best CB can do without going against their entire model thus far - a model reliant, remember, on them actually getting things ready. Imagine they pledge it for a specific date but something delays it a bit, what's the reaction? More anger.

    2) That is possible, but given that the actual changes aren't in play yet, when would you want them? Because we don't know what's truly in that book yet in all fairness - but I'd be inclined to think it may not give any bonuses to the rYJ. It seems simple enough from where we stand to say "do this and that", something like that can be justified as combat experience during the uprising causing those changes - but CB have playtested whatever has been written already. Any compensation without playtesting would be temporary at best or at risk of further change if imbalanced one way or another from the emergency nature of it all, as well as affecting future work since it may be derived from untested or unfinished work. If CB didn't have something planned in the Uprising changeover period or in the near future afterwards, it's not likely to happen. They'd also likely have to be limited to vanilla YJ, because giving ISS a boost for basically losing nothing but a little bit of pride makes little sense.

    A shame, though, because there's plenty of options. Your Ninja would probably not be too OTT if it went to ISS as well, but otherwise there's stuff like Vanilla getting special link team options for Zanshi, reduced SWC or more points for Soldier of Fortune as YJ hire more mercs in to bolster their forces, Veteran L1/V:Courage optional profiles for units to represent them as combat proven during the stramash, Inspiring Leadership options for Imperial Agents in Vanilla to grant a wider "veterans of the uprising" effect, etc.

    3) On one hand, maybe a warning that it could be subject to changes in availability later would have worked, but on the other, they seem to have intended a surprise - and it's not like it makes a whole lot of sense to advertise a product like that. How would you go about ensuring that CB can prevent anything like that in future? I'm really not sure you could. For instance, people can be surprised by new minis - should CB give six months warning for planned replacements and begin a 10% off clearance sale on any stock they have left of the soon-to-be OOP versions? And again, what happens if something goes wrong? Bigger companies have been flatfooted by production problems or unexpected reception to new rules: Finecast, Codex: Tyranids, Age of Sigmar, just three examples from arguably the biggest player in the business. Yeah, they make £30m a year now - but CB probably make a tenth of that in final income. This move has been a hefty risk as it is, does it make sense to begin taking further risks before they know if this one works?

    Yeah, it's frustrating to have to wait, but CB have a long-term strategy. Short-term panic may be more dangerous to their survival than a bit of discontent now.

    And, on another note, what happens if this were all to come to pass? You've been angry, aggressive, and borderline abusive. Step back a bit and place yourself in their shoes. Someone doing what you are doing is after you for answers on something you've been working on.

    Are you gonna accept their demands for info, or tell them where to go?

    I get you're pissed, I get you dropped money on a mini you'll either be selling at a mark-down or need more minis to actually use it, but if you were on the receiving end of your conduct you'd be well within your rights to ignore the person attacking you, or to refer them to the reply given in Arkell vs Pressdram. You've been making valid points and asking valid questions but the way you're putting them across is frankly a bit childish. Yes, it's true the sort of twee person who thinks swearing is in any way a sign of a lack of education or a lack of verbal interest is just a fucking lunatic, but there comes a point swearing for swearing's sake buggers the point you're trying to make.
     
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  20. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    Most don't want to know when. They want to know if anything is going to happen in the near or at worst the far future for YJ. You might view it as entitlement or whining but I just see it as players wanting to know if they'll be getting replacement units in a reasonable amount of time (effecting those going to tournies or even the casual players). Also, the placating needed to be done before to avoid the mess. Here's the easy way on how to do it:

    "Hey Yu Jing players! Look forward to the coming months as we've got some cool stuff for you coming down the pipe line to help with JSA leaving."

    Could of saved more people from grabbing the pitchforks and for others that don't like the whining.

    This times 10.

    I'm not with the I want IA now group. I just want to know if there's anything to look forward to. There probably is but some official confirmation would go a long way.
     
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