I've played this game since N1 and I've never, ever, ever, have seen anyone play Nesaie Alke. And it's a shame because both her minis have been pretty fine ones.
She's the cheapest NCO option in her sectorial and a wildcard so can be stapled to any fireteam of choice, it's hard for her to not be viable with that combination.
1) She had no 0 WSC option until Blackwind or so, only the Sptifire Lt or not Lt. NCO and Specialist Operative were not added until, at the very least, N4. 2) She is now the only Thorakite Troop with 360º visor troop, because it was removed from all base Thorakitai. 3) Alke used to cost in N3 25pts+1.5SWC, adding NCO and Specialist Operative is +4pts to the non Lt profile and +2 to the Lt profile (making her also, incidentally, easier to recognize as a Lt). She also got +1 to CC since N3... She also had both Religious Troop and Courage, getting the Courage removed in N4... 4) Thrasymedes has always been a better option to lead a thorakitai fireteam: Mimetism -6 and light rocket launcher (plus extras) for 28pts 0 SWC, he used to cost 30pts and 0.5SWC (from N3 to N4, lost: nanopulser, Specialist Operative, Stun Grenades, 360º Visor. Won: Forward Observer, +1 inch dodge, Stealth, courage, Zapper and Flash Pulse) 5) Thorakitai demanded either Thrasimedes or Alke to create the Fireteam, and they could only make Thorakitai FT. With N4 the Thorakitai got an enomotarchos profile (so they could link without a hero, consider Myrmidons always had the Myrm Officer for a non-hero fireteam). This is moot, however, since the Thorakitai were so modified from N3 to now (even the models, I have 10 Thorakitai and they can be readily grouped by age, the special weapons box are somewhat slimmer than the old ones from the starting box, and the Blackwind ones directly carry a shield) that only a few profiles remain unchanged, and the most played ones used to be the 12pts SMG+Chain Rifle (now with pulzar instead of CR, and losing the 360º Visor for no compensation), the SMG+Light Rocket Launcher (because in N4 it went from 15pts+1SWC to 16pts 0SWC), the Feuerbach (+1pt from N3 in cost, for some reason), and the specialists, which used to be the 12pts profile with Medikit or FO, or the 14pts Combi Rifle + Nanopulser with Engineer. In fact, the engineer costing 18pts was VERY used as a filler to back remotes (Total Reaction, for example) even unlinked, but was removed in favour of a more expensive Hacker (19pts 0.5SWC) with the standard 0 BTS of Thorakitai... At the same time, Myrmidon fireteams got a boost in composition and bonuses (Thorakitai got the same +1BS bonus for pure link, but simply lacks the utility and sheer power of most hero profiles, and have no visual modifiers at all), making people to gravitate to double myrmidon links and forget Thorakitai entirely, specially since the backline is now protected by the threat of an MSV2 ML Hidden Deployment Agema (or two). TLDR: Alke was always subpar, now she brings something unique to a troop fireteam that is rarely, if ever, used (outside of narrative/casual play). As for the models, I have the old one, and I find the new one disgusting in the proportions, with a head that looks squashed from the front. I don't know who made the photos, but I don't feel the slightest temptation to buy the box (specially since I already have the old Scylla too).
That's your opinon, man - I can't say what my local Aleph player sees in her, but she was a common sight in his Steel Phalanx lists fro years.
While I think there are many valid points about the Kriza and the Prime (and other profiles) in this discussion, what baffles me is that there are still so many people who think CB actually cares about any of it. Haven't we had three consecutive years now of basically no signs at all that CB is listening to player feedback or planning on doing any sort of balance passes? The last actual balancing I can remember was the Avatar and Imetrons/Netrods nerf. Since then, what has ever been addressed by CB that wasn't related to a new release? They promised cool fireteam special rules like the one for Morats. Never happened. They released a half-assed Reinforcements mode, then never cared to fix it (adding the profiles to the standard game mode is not a fix, it's just an admission of failure). People have written thousands of words on how to improve the game, making the most sensible suggestions to balance problematic rules, offering to adjust profiles themselves – and CB has never, ever given us so much as an acknowledgment that they're even listening. So why does everyone keep pretending discussions are these are useful? CB. Doesn't. Care.
Mostly because I write my own wargame rules as a hobby, in my case, and Infinity has so many good examples of great rules writing, and horrible design. The discussion can also be fun itself and occasionally (though more rarely these days) we even get to talk about lore.
I agree with Savnack, but would go even further and say that O-12 stopped being about single-purpose units with the release of Starmada. It is, I think, the primary reason I completely lost intrest in O-12 - that as a faction it stopped being about finesse and was becoming a blunt trauma faction. Well. There was the release of Reinforcement units that CB expressed they basically felt forced to do. This doesn't counter your point, but proves it. Being forced to release them into the main stream of units seem to be a result of the Reinforcement installment having ignored feedback too much.
Honestly, I really agree with your argument here. It's a very good reason Combined Army should not have both your listed tradeoffs. The fact that O12 comboes as well as it does with units that tend to be a match for specialist factions in the field and still can't chase down CA's win rate is my primary piece of evidence that the weaknesses could go at this point. Don't get me wrong, I would like the factional shortcomings and strengths back, but it will never really feel meaningful when your opponents can just opt out of the whole "weakness" thing.
Yup, nevermind them shoving the Squalo MK2 down our throats and removing the original profile and other questionable decisions.
Well, they didn't remove the original profile in the end... after massive protest from the community. Same with the false Roadbot advertisement that was corrected due to community pressure. But those were not balance fixes, those were just last minute corrections of obvious PR blunders.
Yes, I was talking about her current iteration. She's a wildcard, you don't need to play her with Thorakitai. Literally just staple her to any fireteam that you want a cheap NCO option in, Hoplites for example.
While I was a bid sad to see a S7 TAG go without another S7 TAG in the list, I was personally surprised anybody cared about MK1 leaving as MK2 despite not having ECM hacker -3 and two points of armour less is still, for me, a superior choice.
I have an S7 and do not have an S6 Squalo. Even without the stats difference it's pretty scummy to just drop a key TAG model from the game with its replacement being something that the old figure cannot legally proxy, especially given that they are so similar as to perform exactly the same role.
Well it can proxy any S7 TAG model, from a plot point this is what MK2 signifies though, PanO took the original Cutter and made it better and more compact.
Hmm, so: in NCA, none, as NCA has no other S7 TAG. in SAA, Dragao. Assuming one played SAA in addition to whatever they had the original Squalo for. in SWF, Jotum. Assuming one played SWF in addition to whatever they had the original Squalo for. in VRID, Cutter. in MO, Seraph. Assuming one played MO in addition to whatever they had the original Squalo for. All the above TAGs have models already (Dragao, memory serving, is out of production, but then the SAA generally is), and ones one likely already has. I agree with the sentiment: if CB wants to resculpt a model and give it a cool new rework, heck, sure, any day. If they want to invalidate the model totally by changing its silhouette, I'm left with a piece of metal I have paid for, put my sweat into to have it painted and on the table, and which I have to actively look for a way to use at all. I've been through that during N2 to N3 transition with my Azra'il. It took me quite a while to get over it, and find an alternate use for the miniatures. For a time, though, I was fuming. In short, I absolutely do consider it to be a wrong step on CB's part, one that irritates their player / client base. The game doesn't need that, the community doesn't need that. It could be easily avoided, if CB gave it a bit of thought. Please note - I don't see a problem with the introduction of the Mk.2 Squalo with a different Silhouette.
Nobody gives a shit what they can proxy it for. They didn't buy it to proxy something else, go shill somewhere else.
I mean, "proxy it as something else" is a valid way out, in my eyes. Bah, I'm of the opinion CB should air the rooms, so to speak, with next edition change, and be pretty liberal about it: we have soo many profiles and units that are pretty similar, and ofetn don't really bring much to the game: thay are a legacy of times past. It would be a good move to invalidate the troops and profiles. At the same time, however, it would be a bad step on the company's part to leave people with heaps of useless miniatures. My solution for that would be giving it a thought, and publish official proxy guidelines for discontinued minis. Make a document saying that (using my Haqq armies here as an example): old Halqa Infantry (discontinued) are suggested to be used a Ghualm. old Kasym Beg model (discontinued) is suggested to be used as a generic Kum Biker etc, etc...
The problem with this plan is the people you are most likely to fuck over with the move are entrenched legacy players. What do most of those people have? The models you're suggesting to proxy for. The guy who already has 5 Ghulam needs another 5 like he needs a bullet in the head. Just as it's equally as asinine for someone to suggest "Oh, just use your Squalo as a Jotum." Gee thanks buddy, why didn't I think of that it'll go great with the other two fuckin Jotums I already have. It was just as stupid during Uprising when I was supposed to use the O-Yoroi instead of my Guijia I already had and thank CB for the pleasure of getting fucked over, it hasn't become any less of a stupid suggestion over half a decade later. Old model -> to new profile is an ok move (Haramaki to Tanko for example). Old model -> existing unit you probably already have shit for is not ok. If CB retire the Squalo and replaced it with a new S7 TAG for NCA, that's fine. Replacing it with a S6 one was a straight up scumbag play that I'd expect out of classic GW.
Unfortunately, like @Errhile stated, during the MrII kerfuffle, people were reminded of Uprising. While Uprising and the change to the Azra'il *might* have been good for faction balance in the long term, it really made people upset. People really hate when models are invalidated, especially when the models were widely used.
I understand the sentiment, but I also understand the need to change, and improve, both from a background and from gameplay perspective. Anyway what I said is I am surprised people really cared, I was more or less expecting people to just rebase their Squalo and play it as an (admittedly tall) MK2 as the MK2 is in most cases a better option. Please stop using absolutes for your personal opinion, it reads weird.
